Ease on summoning theme restrictions

Sparr0w

Per this handy-dandy list, elemental summons are restricted to conj specialist wizards, druids, and certain clerics.

I understand the restrictions are partially in place to set conj specialist wizards apart - but I'd like to propose opening up these summons to GSF Conj sorcerers as well. Thematically, a sorcerer with GSF: Conj would display exceptional ability over summoning. And historically/canonically, elementals have always been fairly common. That GSF sorcerers are barred from these basic bitch summons is... strange, to say the least.

Please consider:

Wizards are already the strongest class on the server
Conj spec wizards can still stand apart from other wizards who didn't specialize.
They also receive: 1 extra summon that stacks with benefits granted by SF/GSF: Conjuration
Extra 25% duration that stacks with benefits granted by SF/GSF: Conjuration
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +10 Hp
Through specialization, which sorcerers do not have access to.
Druids/clerics also carry on without the feat investment, yay!

As a sorcerer, please consider:

A 2 feat investment is a pretty big deal; sorcerers don't receive bonus feats as wizards do. GSF demands they invest half of their 4 (5 if human) total feats (assuming they reach level 9) just to be able to access elementals.
As we know, sorcerers make amazing RP elementalists. Not being able to reflect this via summons is a huge feelsbad.

As a player, please consider:

The pool of summoning themes is already shallow as it is - from the 7 'usable by anyone' themes, 4 are vermin or vermin-adjacent, 2 are animals. The 1 remaining non-app theme is the same creature type (construct) as the only legal-to-use app-only theme*. There frankly isn't enough variety to support a restriction that only benefits a very specific flavor of wizard. (*which sorcerers are also barred from using, so technically they have no legal options.)
It's simply unfun.

Alternatives:

Allow sorcerers to choose from one of these special themes while still allowing wizards to switch freely (once again emphasizing sorcerer niche proficiency over wizard versatility). I would propose revoking the GSF requirement here however, and allow this to be a reflection of the sorcerer's bloodline/abilities being attuned towards a specific plane/element/etc.
Perhaps factor the sorcerer's alignment. Ex: Elementals/shades requiring some sort of neutrality.
Implement more robust summoning themes.
Though I hate this solution, I think many of us would settle for making these themes case-by-case/app-lite.
If supporting conj spec wizards is your goal, there are other ways to achieve this that doesn't deprive sorcerers. Perhaps giving them a custom arcane theme with magical rats, blink dogs, tressyms, etc.

foley

Definitely would agree with GSF Conj Sorcs being able to get elementals, considering how little diversity there are among the other non-app summons, it would make sense for a Sorc who is very specialized into summoning would be able to summon an elemental.

Broken Gunblade

I agree.

HellzYeah

I also agree.

I don't play Conjurists generally, so I never really realized how limited you were in what you could summon. Elementals are a classic D&D summon, so I'm not really sure why they were locked behind these restrictions anyway?

Acemvi

Aye.

O-louth

I do not see why not.

Sorcs' are limited in their spell selection anyhow, so I see no issue with this.

Puffy

It has been brought up for discussion!

Sparr0w

@puffy <3

JoeKickAss

@sparr0w said in Ease on summoning theme restrictions:

The pool of summoning themes is already shallow as it is - from the 7 'usable by anyone' themes, 4 are vermin or vermin-adjacent, 2 are animals.

I find the summoming themes pretty boring if you are a non-app, or a DM doesn't come along and otherwise spawn the books for you. I have never seen any generate automatically except for vermin ones, which spawn everywhere.

Zool

There's actually an NPC who wants to help sorcs be able to use more themes.

JoeKickAss

@zool said in Ease on summoning theme restrictions:

There's actually an NPC who wants to help sorcs be able to use more themes.

Good to know!!

Arabel had some really nice themes actually and some real nice DM custom ones, so - yes - I am not saying mechanics are not there, just the vanilla themes might be a wee bit better.

This has actually kinda been a plot point for my character. I will say, I’m kinda sad how limited the non-app themes are for sorcerers but at the same time since there is an NPC working on that I was just going to do stupid and crazy stuff to try to earn ALL THE SUMMONS!

Sparr0w

There are plenty of players who'd rather keep their distance from factions/NPCs is the thing.

Earning unique themes through an NPC = fun
Withholding what should be very basic themes = not fun

Dire Rabbit

I'd rolled up a sorcerer meant to be themed around water/Istishia (primordial water power). I'd /love/ to actually be able to use that link to play the character the way I intended them. Themed sorcs are my jam 100%

@sparr0w said in Ease on summoning theme restrictions:

There are plenty of players who'd rather keep their distance from factions/NPCs is the thing.

Earning unique themes through an NPC = fun
Withholding what should be very basic themes = not fun

100%. I have a strong visceral reaction to how npcs and factions tend to subsume someone's character and put them firmly in the back seat on anything. Joining for specific faction perks is cool, but options and variety aren't bad for those who want to do their own thing.

Zool

@arcanigans We designed the current factions to not have that issue based on feedback essentially saying what you posted here, That NPC's steal the show and are too important - they now mostly have their own goals which don't directly link, or influence the overall setting, leaving that to players, with faction NPC's giving some ideas and inspirations for things to do.

foley

Locking basic summons behind doing an NPC's plot that could take months doesn't seem very fun to a lot of people. Sorry.

Zool

I would say more on the actual themes thing, but as said by Puffy, it's being discussed so I should probly not for now.

Zool

@foley While still not saying too much on the summons as it's being discussed - I will say.

There were no plans to add the themes to Sorcerors as they were intentionally locked off by design.
An NPC was designed with this as a minor goal, and some of it was built. The design wasn't to entirely lock it to a faction either.

If those themes are "basic" or not is subjective.
Objectively, currently, they aren't as they have requirements to obtain them.

My personal opinion on if they are basic or not is irrelevant.

Thanks for the suggestions and feedback, it's being taken into account.

foley

@zool

So if it's not ready to discuss, understood.

Also they are basic, by DnD standards, elementals are a very common summon in almost all tabletop games ran.

Also it would be better for wizards to be locked out if anything, since wizards are known for being versatile, while sorcerers are the ones that are known for being very specialized in one thing, but locking out a class from those themes is a bit brutal.

Hopefully the discussions go well for sorcerers!

JoeKickAss

@zool said in Ease on summoning theme restrictions:

If those themes are "basic" or not is subjective.

It is not really mechanical, it is flavour. Rats and insects are fine if you are playing some drunken alley wizard, and beasts suit Ranger.

It's more having a suite of summon themes that match a range of concepts. Most concepts dont really want to summon a dung beetle, thematically. Cant think of a better choice for a hobo gnome wizard, that I would be happy playing for three weeks before being murdered by the community for selling bootleg insect eggs.

My guess is summons are too powerful at the minute, so perhaps reducing the length of time they last or dole out banishment charms could alleviate these issues.