General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom
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Fargle brought up a good point about shitposting and semi-serious suggestions not being the best way to discuss this so I'm making this post instead.
The creativity of DM loot is severely stifled by the current philosophy that faction gear must be the best possible loot acquirable IG. Most of the loot given out by DMs is simply renamed craftable gear which, no matter how well you gussy it up with colorful descriptions, is sorta bland. Storytellers should be given more freedom to hand out loot that is more interesting and not just renamed craftable gear. The exact power guidelines are up for debate, but I think many people would agree that the hard cap of "the best loot ever" being +1 and some minor benefits means there is precious little design space to work with.
And on that subject, trying to force people into factions by making sure they're the only possible avenue for decent loot is a terrible design choice. The counterpoints to this dated philosophy have been discussed ad nauseum but to summarize: people will join factions for other IG perks regardless or simply because it fits their characters, and the rewards for reaching Rank 3 or even 4 in a faction seem fairly paltry regardless given the biggest jump in loot levels is from "not in a faction" to Rank 2.
This leads into a larger point about Storytellers as a whole needing more freedom to do things period. The server (and setting) should not be such a tightly curated thing. Arabel is currently being carried on the backs of Storytellers who are logging in almost daily to run events and spice things for players.
Discuss, thank you.
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100% Strong agree that Storytellers need more freedom.
Especially with so many of the Admins having real life cutting into their time available to give to the game, or in some cases cutting it away entirely, Storytellers have been enabling pretty much all player progress. And if they aren't able to provide rewards that make people feel like they've achieved something special, their ability to keep people invested is kneecapped heavily.
Strong agree also on factions. We have some really interesting factions right now, their loot is not and should not be considered to be the main lure of them. The argument that without the loot nobody would join the factions simply does not apply, especially since even with the promise of the best loot available, several people still choose not to join for story reasons which simply serves to kneecap themselves. It Punishes people for having concepts outside factions, and Punishing creativity is 100% a bad idea.
I can't speak too highly of Loot levels mechanically, nowhere near my area of expertise, but plenty of people that I know have far more knowledge than me on it have all been parroting the exact same things for a while now, and are always shot down with the same non-answers adressing exagerations of or massive detours from what was acctually said.
Tl;Dr, agree with everything said here.
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To clarify on the faction argument. It seems whack to make loot the incentive for joining a faction. I've never really understood why it's so important that DM factions get the best loot. PC factions are just as valid even if they don't last as long.
At this juncture it's not even necessary to wear the specific faction gear anymore so long as the faction colors are adhered to, so what's the problem?
It's also kind of a weird self-own to say that faction tier loot should be the tops because otherwise nobody would join the faction. You really think the faction is so uninteresting that the only reason anyone would join it is for loot that isn't impotent? If so why did you make the faction? Seems better to make a faction that is cool and interesting so people inherently want to join it.
There was another server I played on that had a faction of impotent lawkeepers who were underfunded and all their gear was mundane and ugly looking, and people joined the faction in droves because they thought the concept was interesting and fun.
Idk why it'd be any different here, and I kinda doubt it is.
All nasty sarcasm and tongue in cheek aside I really think you should consider it. As a once storyteller I can attest that making loot became so clinical and full of buerocracy that I would get crazy high levels of anxiety every time I saw people do something cool and I wanted to give them flavorful, interesting loot that wouldn't also be impotent af and thrown out the moment they got into a faction, because I knew exactly what I would have to go through to get it to them.
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Hi guys.
To clear a few things up;
What you are seeing, and the primary difference between a Storyteller and an Admin is that Storytellers have much more freedom from responsibility. I'm a kid in a candy store. The admins are the candy store. They built the damn thing, are still building the damn thing, stocking the shelves with various goodies that are on theme (no hotdogs, more chocolate, exc).
I'm just the kid, shoveling in the candy.
I do have loads of free form on what I do, I can write and run my own plots, I can even influence changes in setting with sign off from the Collective (because we're a democracy of DMs), we vote on stuff. That sort of thing. If you feel Storytellers are encouraging player progress and Admins are not, that is operating as intended. Admins will help out when there is time, but they dedicate 90% of their time to far more important things, like building areas, mechanics, trying to not make PrCs dogshit (sorry Cadiz, we know. They are trying.) Setting changes, story proposals, spear-heading the meta-plot. Faction related hakz, the whole bloody prestige system...
Part 2 Theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWdLt3Afjrg
There are rules with the loot, some of which were broken by myself as a newb-DM, which is why we have rules about how it is distributed, stats, exc. It gets complicated rather quickly. I don't fully understand all the rules, but that has to do with some failure in mechanics on my part. I have not been crafting gear as long as many of the folks on the team.
Acererak Example: "Hey Prof, Spiff, is on hit Flesh to Stone crazy with a -5AB?" The answer is yes... Especially in our setting. I've played ADND in a 1-10 range for 19 years, I've been on Arabel for 15 years. I play PNP every other week with the same 5 people for over 10 years. I knew it was stronk, I didn't realize how OP until I DM'd on Arabel alittle longer.
So there is an unfortunate necessity to group-think and oversight regarding making items. There is a -necessary- approval process. Will it one day be gone? Maybe? I feel that is a decision best left up to the group of folks who are responsible for handing out these rewards, not for the people collecting them. I do think the approval process throttles me rolling more unique rewards, but there isn't really much to be done about this. Its -Necessary-. I don't say this lightly, it takes time to make stuff an not every dm event should involve a piece of gear that alters your character into a different kind of badassery. Loot should be thematic, story driven, and of course, full of flavor. Loot should not stand you above the rest of the playerbase. This just gets silly for pretty obvious reasons. (Exceptions may apply.)
We do not give out generic +1/+2 enhancement bonus. To anybody. This is pretty obviously a mechanical choice. If you want it explained, feel free to hit me up. This is derailing from the post. I just wanted to express that a lack of generic +1 and +2 enhancement to weapons is working as intended. We want you to need the right tool for the right job. You're not meant to be able to murderhobo your way through every encounter. It's just dumb and boring.
Faction loot is technically the best because its meant to represent the collective efforts of more than just PCs. NPCs are working together for a common purpose and it is reflected through loot. Why would Billy the lvl 10 solo wizard have the resources and reach to craft/find superior loot to the organization that has, for years, been doing so? What reason is there for the NPC supported faction to not have that loot already? Another more obvious reason comes to mind - Faction gear is meant to be worn. In every faction baring the.. very, very few, like Ghosts of Cormyr, players are representing who they are. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard "Yeah but, this is better, so im gonna wear it" as a reason for not representing a faction, or in recent days, representing a conflicting -faith- for a better stat. The NPCs paying you, supporting you, clothing you, giving you shelter, helping your projects, protecting the city, yada yada - to have all that nullified because "I want that additional 1 AC bud" is a problem. Its a roleplaying game, and we've just traded roleplay for stats. (disclaimer, should probably put a disclaimer here but whatever. Exceptions may apply).
So yeah. Faction loot is superior. its meant to be superior so people feel like they are being supported in their story. Sometimes on rare occasions, loot is given out that is on par to this. Usually it marks a huge development in story. If you feel you have achieved this story development and have not been rewarded, poke that dm and lets get a discussion rolling. As you probably noticed in Chapter 2, we've loosened this up a bit to incorporate colors=representation, but the fact still stands, factions sponsor players. Why wouldn't they have good loot to do so?
Do remember I am but one of the many. The above is a perspective I hold, not the Collective.
Feel free to respond, I will happily continue the discussion, not butt hurt just think my thoughts as a storyteller might help. If you would rather this be left as a player discussion, that's cool too, I can shush.
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Class traitor.
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@Lord_Acererak said in General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom:
Faction gear is meant to be worn. In every faction baring the.. very, very few, like Ghosts of Cormyr, players are representing who they are. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard "Yeah but, this is better, so im gonna wear it" as a reason for not representing a faction, or in recent days, representing a conflicting -faith- for a better stat. The NPCs paying you, supporting you, clothing you, giving you shelter, helping your projects, protecting the city, yada yada - to have all that nullified because "I want that additional 1 AC bud" is a problem. Its a roleplaying game, and we've just traded roleplay for stats. (disclaimer, should probably put a disclaimer here but whatever. Exceptions may apply).
I will address this part specifically and point out that it no longer applies, since you now can wear anything so long as it's dyed the right colours. With an explicite ruling making this clear as the case.
Also, if the Admins are dedicating so much of their time and effort to the wonderful behind the scenes systems that keep everything running, then logically they can't afford to also be available to check every piece of loot as well? The fact that Storytellers have to simply recycle the same available pieces of loot again and again because of how much infinitely easier it is has been stated as a major part of the issue people are seeing.
I get that some care needs to be taken, but not so much that every single piece of loot even slightly outside of existing circulation would need oversight and approval that they don't have the time to give.
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We have this table thingy with guidelines for different stats, which helps storytellers make loot without admin approval.
Storytellers come to us if they are unsure if the loot they made is alright, they can make stuff without checking.
It may get retconned/modified later if it turns out to be "too powerful" in some cases though.
Just wanted to put that one there as it was brought up the admins won't have time to check every bit of loot given out. That's true, and we don't.
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Discussion is good, and I shall partake.
It's great to hear that Storytellers do have more freedom to do the things they want to do. I also recognize the efforts of Admins to script things, build things, etc. to generally keep the server running.
However, I do dislike elements of the server philosophy (which I'm sure has been made abundantly clear).
The existing loot levels on the server give no room for customization because DM faction loot is used as an example of the best possible loot one can reasonably earn. The only loot I've seen dropped recently (I can think of a single exception) is rebranded crafted gear. Loot doesn't need to have enhancement levels at all to be interesting, but the fact that +1 is the pinnacle restricts things greatly. The average level of an adventurer in Arabel is roughly 8, which is when in a Forgotten Realms-based DnD setting +1 gear becomes very common. Given the threats that Arabellan adventurers regularly face (huge monsters, terrifying demons, etc.) it doesn't seem unreasonable that low level magical gear is uncommon but not rare.
Which brings me to my next point: +1 gear is actually incredibly common! And this is because factions should, as mentioned, be able to provide this to PCs due to having resources to spare in this regard. However, factions should not be the only way to get equivalent gear. Otherwise, how do adventurers survive at all in the Forgotten Realms? Most of them are essentially freelancers who fight for whatever cause they please, not members of organizations.
The faction gear you get as a Rank 2 faction member should provide the baseline for what is "good" gear. Does something on par with that need to be given out on every single DM event? No, of course not. But it's not unreasonable to expect something on par with what is, pardon my French, basic bitch faction gear, as a reward for completing a minor DM plot or something of that nature. And in light of this, the gear you receive as a Rank 4 faction member should likely be closer to +2 to represent being the actual pinnacle.
And as a counterpoint to the "people do join factions for the gear" perspective, I've been in the Precept for 2 months now and I haven't worn a single piece of faction loot. This is entirely because I value my ability to customize my character's appearance. People will join the current factions because they are interesting, they really don't need further incentives than that. This would be especially true if, because you can now wear whatever you want so long as it represents the faction's colors, Storytellers are able to give out Rank 2 faction gear equivalents as rewards which can be altered and dyed appropriately.
What I know some of the Admin team will say in response, and that I will attempt to curtail now, is that people just want powerful gear. But note that at no point did I say this. What people want is interesting gear that doesn't immediately get nerfed into uselessness. Things that are not so easy to earn, perhaps, but are flavorful and fit the characters who wield them. This does not need to be restricted to simply "bigger numbers" in the form of +1 or +2 enhancements, so much as items that just... are different, and can't simply be crafted after 40 hours of monotonous grinding.
Yes, I agree that a +3 longsword would be ridiculous loot to give to a Fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization: Longsword, but the same Fighter would gain virtually no benefit from, say, a helmet that is fashioned to resemble an angel's visage and therefore gives her +2 Charisma, +2 to Bluff, and +2 to Persuade. But if this Fighter was known for being charismatic on and off the battlefield, a commander and a diplomat, it would likely be very much appreciated by their player.
Things like +2 to an attribute, +1 enhancement, and other such properties seem scary but in reality it's very easy to create loot that provides these things without being "game-breaking." A +2 Intelligence item was brought up as an example, but this would likely be completely fine if it can only be used by anyone who's not a Wizard. Likewise, giving a +1 spear with 1d4 fire damage and 1d8 massive criticals is probably fine if it can, say, only be used by Sorcerers. But both of these items will likely be blanket banned with the current loot levels simply because of what they do, regardless of the context in which they do it.
The Admin team has consistently displayed a distrust and downright fear of their players misbehaving. I would counter that many players have been around for years (long enough to remember the Admins when they were players themselves) and are generally courteous OOCly while also being great RPers ICly. Please reward this by adjusting the loot table mentioned by @Zool accordingly.
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I think these are interesting!
(huh that single use should be charges... oops!)
This is some quest loot.
(Those alchemists fire, are actually alchemists acid and apply acid damage, cos green)
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The discussion here is mostly about DM loot. I don't really have many complaints about quest loot, particularly because I don't quest enough to know much about them. From what I've seen, some of the weapons and armor are pretty good!
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Hey folks! Read through and just gonna input my own two cents.
Honestly, I agree with what Ace is saying. I get that faction loot should be really good. But there's very, very little that compares. Even DM loot you get tends to be worse than even the tier 2 stuff. Even loot you worked hard for... However, I think that my biggest gripe comes from:
- to have all that nullified because "I want that additional 1 AC bud" is a problem. Its a roleplaying game, and we've just traded roleplay for stats.
The problem here is that the loot from faction stuff is just vastly, vastly superior. This means that even high end stuff that you can find on hard quests and long adventures and the like are pretty much worthless outside of their prestige points. Also, it severely, severely cripples anyone that wants to do something other than play one of the factions. While yes, I get that it's best to have people within the main dm-plot driven factions, to have it that different should be changed.
I can only really see this in the armor sets between what you can find, craft, and get from factions. And honestly, it's a pretty simple solution. Just buff crafting gear. Don't make it overwhelming by any means but... Just tack on a simple +1 ac onto mithril/adamantium armor, and the high end leathers, and cloth. I don't know why it's not there in the first place, and it really should be. This wouldn't disassociate from the issue that Lord Acererak brought up, because even with a +1 tacked on, that gear is still going to be worse than faction gear (faction gear is pretty crazy). Aaaand that represents a good payout for a really big investment in crafting.
TL;DR: please make the high end crafting armors better to better balance out non-faction wear. Will still be worse than faction gear, but a simple +1 ac on the armors you can craft would mean it's a bit less shoehorny and lets you play stuff outside of factions.
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+1 AC being added to Adamantine and Mithril armor is a great change. I hope we can see more freedom in w/e "pros and con" matrix DMs use to give out gear as well!
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@Acemvi said in General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom:
Adamantine and Mithril armor
+1 AC is added only Mithril. I have another thing to do for adamantine.
If the power would stay on at my house I might get it done today. -
No offense lord Moleman, but i'd never wear ANY of that. What's missing is some awesome creativity items and it sucks to see the loot level so low you can't play with any of that shit. I saw some amazing items in the past, like a sword that was +5 enhancement, but -6 ab and damage. Why was it good? Because it would cut through any di without ever becoming TRULY good... As it is, loot level is so shit that making any interesting items anyone would want to use becomes impossible.
I suggested a while back, a system that would truly fix all of this. Give people an item, a mundane item, with a history. Then you could add in things, tiny, miniscule things, like tokens, that DMs could name "+2 discipline" (Or whatever), and add it to the lootpile, you could limit this to only a couple, or even a single, token per dm quest/event. A player who won it could then choose to add it ti a DM loot of his choice. These would then add up, making the player's piece become more powerful and more special every time AND making even miniscule things like +1 to a skill feel like they were actually a reward that people would WANT, because they'd add up. This makes it infinitely easier for s storyteller to make loot of this kind.
Additional bonus, the storyteller could write down a bit of history behind each item and adjust the loot piece.
magpie> If you don't want to die don't spit at a blueberry muffin
khammy> Raaz was a sexy beast. The kind of guy when he beat you up, you get horny.
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What I used to do as a storyteller, and feel free to either steal this idea or call it stupid, was I used to create limited use items that were not items. For example:
A Boost of Confidence Following Your Victory - this is not an item but instead represents the confidence gained from a hard won battle. For a short time you will be able to remember the fear of death and the thrill of victory and draw upon that emotion for a future battle. (Limited charges of one or various spells).
A Primal Bloodlust - this is not an item but represents the carnal thirst for battle the manifests itself as an animalistic roar. Even from a less intimidating source, this burst of fury can terrify unsuspecting foes. (Limited uses of fear or battlecry)
A smug sense of self-confidence - you were recently proven right and it has inflated your ego. For a short time you have more pride and bravado in your step and are more able to call upon your superior intellect to win arguments (limited uses of Fox cunning/eagles splendor/identify)
These were essentially glorified consumables but were customized and personalized to the character based on their history.
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@CitizenBane said in General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom:
No offense lord Moleman, but i'd never wear ANY of that. What's missing is some awesome creativity items and it sucks to see the loot level so low you can't play with any of that shit. I saw some amazing items in the past, like a sword that was +5 enhancement, but -6 ab and damage. Why was it good? Because it would cut through any di without ever becoming TRULY good... As it is, loot level is so shit that making any interesting items anyone would want to use becomes impossible.
I suggested a while back, a system that would truly fix all of this. Give people an item, a mundane item, with a history. Then you could add in things, tiny, miniscule things, like tokens, that DMs could name "+2 discipline" (Or whatever), and add it to the lootpile, you could limit this to only a couple, or even a single, token per dm quest/event. A player who won it could then choose to add it ti a DM loot of his choice. These would then add up, making the player's piece become more powerful and more special every time AND making even miniscule things like +1 to a skill feel like they were actually a reward that people would WANT, because they'd add up. This makes it infinitely easier for s storyteller to make loot of this kind.
Additional bonus, the storyteller could write down a bit of history behind each item and adjust the loot piece.
This would eventually end up with items that had +5 vs abberations +1 AB, +3 vs orcs +2 vs evil +2 vs chaotic +d4 Fire damage + d4 acid damage + 2 cold damage +6 massive criticals +d6 piercing damage.
Unless we added a limit to the number of things you can add, which then kinda makes it a bit boring and ruins the idea behind it.
It's a cool idea, but not as simple as just, doing that. And most solutions I can think of off hand pretty much ruin the idea behind it.
(Also, the frog loot wasn't an example of powerful loot, it was an example of something with a bit more to it, something interesting. I guess frog stuff aint interesting enuf :( )
> !!!MOLES for the MOLE GOD!!!
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@Zool Would you say your idea really..
Croaked?
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@Zool don't worry I found the loot ribbeting.
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Well, I guess I toadally asked for that, just hopping I'll live it down one day.
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Not to leapfrog past the discussion, but I'm generally in favor of simple solutions rather than adding to Zool's already considerable workload. Updating whatever loot matrices that Storytellers use so they can give out more interesting items and expanding the "loot cap" from +1 with upsides to something more would be easier, I think.
This said, a broader discussion to be had here is the importance of a number of Admins not having a ton of experience with video games, which is ostensibly what NWN is. CoA might be a roleplay server, but you cannot divorce it entirely from its foundation as a video game. Basic game design concepts are falling by the wayside in adherence to a not incomprehensible but ultimately flawed vision of "how things should be."
Case in point, if rank 2 faction gear is the best possible gear that players can normally get, you're denying player progression in this regard once they've fully joined a faction. And player progression is absolutely necessary in order to maintain player interest in a video game. We can wax philosophical about how CoA is "about the RP" and everything else is simply not as important, but RP only happens with players, and players do not stick around without player progression.
tl;dr You cannot build a house on sand.
"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus
