Involving & being involved, breeding PvP and CoA
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Here's how I see healthy conflict can be bred and fun can be had when people are being inclusive. I will do this in the form of a story. In it, both sides get to play their rigid roles to the very end.
Bob the Paladin meets Ned the Necromancer for the first time. They know hardly anything about each other, though both may have heard rumors. Both want to help Nada with her pests for their own reasons, so Bob and Ned decide to do it together- because, let's face it, two is better than one. In Nada's estate, Ned sticks his hand inside a beetle and cackles ominously, Bob is disgusted by this, and decides to intervene. Debate starts on their philosophies on whether or not the study of beetle guts is more important than honoring their fallen foe. Still, they continue on, knowing full well the real threat is still out there. Eventually, together with Neds negative energy blasts and Bobs mighty smites, they defeat the beetle queen and return to Nada victorious- with both disturbed by each other, but still owing their success in the grand scheme of all.
Now this is the point where the story usually falls apart. Bob the paladin and Ned the Necromancer have displayed to each other how little they have in common. The adventure at this point can either a) fall apart, or b) continue. For the sake of inclusion and fun, let's assume both players decide to take option b.
Next up, Bob and Ned decide to help the local shrine locate its missing priests. Both men make their way into the catacombs. Bob is relieved as he doubts Ned will be sticking his hands into anything here. They soon encounter undead! Bob bravely defends them both from the undead, while Ned keeps his distance and merely comments how poorly the caster of the dead has done his job by taking on such weak servants! Bob is disturbed, and a heated debate starts where the Bob yet again is forced to lecture his new "friend" on why such abominations should not even exist, and Ned merely points out they are a part of this world. Ned could even display a hint of lust on how the undead had been created, and at which point Bob would confront him by threatening him with violence should he attempt something of the sort. Yet, they both make it to the end, and get out of the Shrine together.
This is again a decisive point for the journey of Bob and Ned. They could a) have their story end here and go their separate ways. Bob has clearly seen quite a lot. And Ned knows Bob will certainly be a hindrance to his schemes. For the sake of inclusion and fun, let's assume both players choose option b) and continue their journey on.
Ned has heard of a missing wizard. Ned welcomes Bobs company because he is a good meat shield. Bob believes he should keep an eye on Ned and decides to go with him. Ned rummages through the tower of the wizard looking fascinated by all the research. Bob gives him the benefit of the doubt at that time and decides to go along, and studies the notes himself to look for evidence. It's only when Ned starts gathering all the research notes for himself that Bob sees he is attempting to steal lore- and not help in finding the missing wizard. Bob demands Ned leaves the research notes behind. Ned gets annoyed and throws a blast of negative energy at Bob. Bob deflects it and hits him- forcing Ned on his knees. Ned, realizing the battle is lost, is forced to relinquish the lore bitterly, to save his life! In return, Bob decides at this point the law needs not to be informed yet- soBob and Ned return from their journey.
Both are now disgruntled by what has happened. Both are wary of each-other. This is again a point where the story can stop. But again, both players are having fun, so why should they? Let's continue our journey on!
Bob and Ned venture off to aid the famous Myron O'Conor find his friend from a cavern. Let's assume Ned believes this cavern may contain some ancient knowledge that could help him advance his study in necromancy, and believes he has grown potent enough to keep Bob out of his way should he intervene again. Bob in turn has weighed his options- what will Ned do if Bob is not there? And though Ned displays revolting characteristics, he has still helped Bob several times now to fight of more dangerous foes of the realm. He trusts in his own capabilities to stop Ned should he try anything, and thus they go on. Ned finds a shady looking book in the cavern that allows him to summon the dead. He decides to repeat the verses of the ritual in the cavern, and the cavern is filled with necromantic energies. As the ground shakes, a ghastly, bony hand erupts from the ground. It's clear to Bob the book Ned has found is the cause of it, and he attempts to stop Ned before the ritual is complete! However, Ned foresees this and shoots Bob with a spell of Hold person, and Bob is paralyzed! He watches in horror as the dead creature rises. Ned decides to test the capabilities of the undead creature on Bob. Bob is forced to become a bystander, as he is slowly cut down by the undead. "Blood for Blood, Bob", says Ned, with a mischievous smile. Bob is beaten unconscious. And when he wakes up, he finds himself outside the cavern, with Ned and the dwarf friend of Myron. Ned has decided to keep Bob alive for a mysterious reason. The skeleton is nowhere in sight. Bob is still convinced that he did not imagine it. So he reports Ned to the Militia and Ned is searched. The Militia find the necromantic book on him and thereby confirming Bobs side of the story. Ned is charged for assault and necromancy. Being a first time offender, the militia lets him go after a fine is paid. Both return to Myron, bitter and enraged by eachother.
Should at this point Ned the Necromancer believe that he has what he needed from Bob. Should Bob the paladin decide Ned has learned his lesson? They can end their story at this point, but again, if they want- they can continue on. And so far, they've been having a blast- it's a real story already, Bob and Neds adventurers are already legend worthy! Should Bob the paladin b) continue to keep an eye out for Ned the Necromancer and invest on a potion of clarity for their next expedition? Or should he a)simply turn a blind eye to Ned at this point, and never again travel with him, thus leaving him to his own crevices.
If at any point the players choose option a, then that's it, the story is done. Bob hears about what Ned has done through rumors, and that's it. He bases his kill-zone on what everyone else says about Ned, and only confronts him at brief moments without taking any time to actually find out more about the character. All the conflict that the characters will have is shallow and based on a word of someone else. There will be no deep connection there, if they keep choosing option A.
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I agree with Wabbit. I'm not saying a paladin shouldn't work with evil, but I think DMs would be more rewarding to one that teamed up and then after worked to atone themselves, rather than one that didn't team up at all.
However, there are simply some things that have rules. With great power comes great responsibility, and sometimes that responsibility is excluding others.
Are we to ignore immersion for the sake of ooc curtosy? Perhaps, but what if the other person likes the rigid immersion? What solution can work for both sides when some things -are- black and white?
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@lord-bhaliir
Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
Even sitting on the same table for a wine with that good / evil character you hate can prove fun to learn about their motivations and try to convert them to your cause
Serafine has a backstory and i'm not fond of writing essays.
Nobody has asked her about it. -
Find myself agreeing with Bhaliir and Olouth both.
Main sticking point would seem to be paladins and druids, who have strict oaths. More importantly, those oaths and what they demand are often interpreted differently by different DMs. We've already seen in this thread how @SpiffyMeister says no and @Mr-Moloch and @Puffy say yes. So whether or not you get screwed for being inclusive depends on who's watching. It's safer not to risk it. (Or don't play paladins/druids.)
Can we get some sort of consensus on this from the DMs on what players should expect, and what the DMs will be sticking to? I think that'd go a long way. (FYSMT?)
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If Magneto and Professor X, He-Man and Skeletor, Hal Jordan and Sinestro can all team up sometimes---then a druid can travel with a priestess of Clar Banda.
I'd just expect the two of them to be INTERACTING. I'd only ever assign spell failure if they literally were doing the whole event like there wasn't an obvious disagreement between their deities and sworn oaths as servants of higher powers.
On top of that, these oaths are often "UPHOLD THE NATURAL BALANCE"--and its not like the druid is literally raising undead legions; they're walking next to someone who has but may also have just walked through a quest with someone who has destroyed an undead legion (the COSMIC BALANCE is not time sensitive, it doesn't forget what you did literally on the last quest when you destroyed sixty zombies).
There is, perhaps, a little too narrow a focus that we as a DM team have had in the past. Lord Bhaliir really has the right approach to it in my book.
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My druids traveled with necromancers, and wizards who summoned outsiders and even gith. I let them know I disapprove of their magic/acts and if they so much as summoned a single skeleton, I'd put it down. Don't hate the player, hate the game (most times...)
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When I play evil I take two tracts.
One I know OOCly I will likely be alone a lot unless I get in with a like minded group. This is the WTF evil so nicely expressed above. Remember your in a very LG leaning setting from my experience. If your "I AM THE EVIL OVERLORD" it can lead to a lot of alone time. Think of it in real world terms, you would not walk the streets of London saying you wanted to rob the nearest bank and expect most law abiding citizens to work with you.
The second type of evil I have much more success with in CoA. Its either very subtle about its long term purposes or it takes the approach mentioned above of turning those powers into something useful for Arabel. Key is when you do the turn the powers to "good" approach, suggest you do it in a way that downplays the worst parts is mentioned above.
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The setting has become better for evil but truth is that overt evil create a lot of action and intrigue, which is great for the server.
It should be tough playing overt evil in the setting but it should not be lonely, which it has always been unless you start up a team concept or on very rare occasions do something amazing like Lizard did with Raghat and that is by far easy - and he was lonely a lot of times too.
As overt evil you will have to work up to get alliances faster than you will lose them in my experience. Also getting DM-attention is super important if you want people to aid your overt evil concept. -
Actually I was rarely lonely with Raghat... one sending for cage fighting and I was drowning in people, including goodies -- partly because I followed the kind of advice being given in this thread: I welcomed the goodies wanting to fight in the cage, even fought with them happily, even let them beat me - or roared if I beat them. Heck I'd have let an elf whoop my ass in the cage if they came looking for a cage match.
There are a lot of ways to play evil without closing doors, and the same goes for good. DM attention comes in the wake of player attention, so don't shoot yourself in the foot by locking any more players out of your plot than you need to. And preferably none at all!
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Might've been because of the TZ then. Because I recall that you at times only being with my pc.
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@zaviron said in Involving & being involved, breeding PvP and CoA:
It should be tough playing overt evil in the setting but it should not be lonely
This
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@khamal said in Involving & being involved, breeding PvP and CoA:
My druids traveled with necromancers, and wizards who summoned outsiders and even gith. I let them know I disapprove of their magic/acts and if they so much as summoned a single skeleton, I'd put it down. Don't hate the player, hate the game (most times...)
The Multitude, a trio of druids, were best buddies with a certain infamous necromancer. The deal was simple, do whatever you want in the city, as long as you do not bring undead in the wilds. Okay, we did threaten to eat him if he did not follow that rule, but still. We became good buddies.
Just got to get creative with the oaths and stuff to create interaction between opposites.
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One time i partied with a Pallid Mask to go to Vaasa for exploration. OOCly at first i was thoughtful. How am i going to justify working with that guy?
It turns out once in a while it can be fun. Pallid kept making snark remarks of me being a necromancer etc, i kept nudging at him back. We were at daggers most of the time and didnt really work together to complete the quest but it was fun to do once in a while.
So long as proper RP is done i see no severe harm in banding opposing sides together once in a while.
I think you are refering to when you went with Kenton Aset?
What was amusing was that you were unaware that he wasnt a jergalite but a maskarn pretending, so he didnt care that you were a necromancer ;) -
@cadiz_stoker
Plot twist......
Yeah i was reffering to you
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@theminionofarabel said in Involving & being involved, breeding PvP and CoA:
@khamal said in Involving & being involved, breeding PvP and CoA:
My druids traveled with necromancers, and wizards who summoned outsiders and even gith. I let them know I disapprove of their magic/acts and if they so much as summoned a single skeleton, I'd put it down. Don't hate the player, hate the game (most times...)
The Multitude, a trio of druids, were best buddies with a certain infamous necromancer. The deal was simple, do whatever you want in the city, as long as you do not bring undead in the wilds. Okay, we did threaten to eat him if he did not follow that rule, but still. We became good buddies.
Just got to get creative with the oaths and stuff to create interaction between opposites.
Was this Tobin Sett..? I seem to remember him and the Multitude being chums! The Multitude was SUCH an awesome concept
As with anything there is nothing wrong with putting your character in a tricky spot if it means it fosters cool stories.
You need to hope the person you are playing with feels the same way though, so sometimes I've sent them a tell and let them know what I want to do OOC and come up with something cool. We all want to have fun at the end of the day, so a little OOC chat IG can do wonders to promote that.
I've played my fair few very evil, very "hunted" PCs so happy to help out with stuff like this if anyone wants to PM me!
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Well, my dwarven paladin of Moradin has nearly fallen out of grace for traveling with a half orc. I only let the orc join the party so a friendly cleric of Tyche could try to convert him.
It didn't convince me to involve everyone. :( -
I feel like this is always going to be an issue until the DM team can reach an solid agreement on it. Because even in this thread Nobody is quite agreeing with one another on where exactly the line is drawn.
We need to know that we aren't going to fall from Grace because of One DM saying it's ok then another seeing the same situation and dumping spell failure on you.
I know everyone is going to have a different opinion on it, but we the players at least need one definitive answer.
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@stevelichman we are planning to clarify quickly.
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@solarfall Yup :) was Tobin. Every druid in the world should be hating his guts but the Multitude saw it differently.
We also had epic conflict with the Purple Dragons once we became wanted. The interactions were always entertaining, we'd argue, fight, leave each other beaten up or run away from each other. We did not want to kill each other so soon, because the conflict was far too fun to end it. I recall fondly the summon fights with War Wizard Shadusk.
My Paladin of Slaughter of Talona was friend with an Ilmateri. They would sit down at the bar and argue all night long. Eventually, the ilmateri ended up almost converting the ebol bastard, putting him on a path to redemption.
There are hundred of ways to interact and involve your nemesis, just got to get creative.