Keep Conflict Alive
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Funny you should say that..
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@Broken:
I don't think Gmork can make any point without being overly sarcastic or snide and/or completely miss the point the original post was making. Love our DMs.
I'm a bitter bitter man. Funny, I was not like that when I started out. I guess it the hours on hours of work I put into this server every day getting thrown back in my face at every turn that has done it.
And I did say I have not read all this thread yet. I'm trying to only read the good bits of feed back.
But as Mr.Moloch said, lets keep on topic so we can see what the players want. -end-
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I just want less OOC bitching over a game.
Umad, too bad?
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Game?
This is real life man.
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I hope it's clear that I, for what it's worth, sincerely appreciate the work of all the DM's and players to make this place enjoyable. It's never been anything but fun for me.
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I think this whole thing about the bad guy managing to survive because his enemy was too honorable is really stupid. What kind of dumb story would that happen in?
Game of CoA, you win or you die bro.
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Actually, I take back what I said. "Soul-bound" items are just silly.
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Personally I think that it is important that the DM's are involved whether just to oversee or affect PvP in some manner, it is evident by some of the posts here that players are never allways privey to what has happened and what is going on and sometimes they are far to concerned with the win instead of making a prolonged and interesting story for all.
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tl;dr version–-Should DMs help make sure PvP doesn't end in PKing, even when it may make sense IC, just to ensure that the fun generated by the conflicts continue?
Sadly the answer to this question is a resounding yes, simply because the number of people who cannot cope with PK seems to outnumber those who can these days.
The ethos of the server has changed a lot over the last few years. Newer players have derived a lot of enjoyment from the increasing softening approach of the server. Returning players have difficulty accepting that parameters are different here now, and try to return things to how they used to enjoy them.
The problem people are having with the cult is that they are entirely populated by older players who are trying to demonstrate how awesome things could be if things returned to a more PvP orientated server. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be working.
There is a clear schism between players and DMs alike who enjoy things the way things are now and those who remember how things used to be. I do not think this will ever be rectified in a satisfactory manner.
I suppose players like myself have the option of attempting to derive enjoyment from the way things are now or moving on to something different. The server has moved through such times before and survived, I hope it does this time, too.
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Our philosophy toward PvP use to be that it never needed to end in actual DEATH.
You could always get raised, respawn, etc.
In recent years, we've moved to make player death more significant. Encouraging people to accept player death as an end point for their story and so on.
If anything that policy was harsher than the old one, and now we are seeking to aim for a middle ground where death is still meaningful and can come as part of the story rather than the absolute end of it (even if it is, admittedly) the end.
So Cunningstunt, honestly, I am not sure I understood what you were saying I don't think. How is this 'softer' than years ago? Or are you talking about a period of the server that I wasn't around for, when PKing was more common and used as "Teh win" by people?
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No Mol, when things became a complete PK fest here I ended up leaving for an extended period, too.
Softer was a bad choice of words, but it certainly feels different here now. I still enjoy playing here, but I do miss worrying if I am going to be mugged in the slums, if a pc werewolf is going to eat me in the wilds, if i may be kidnapped and dragged to my death by a deranged cult.
I derived a lot of enjoyment by the perceived threat that my character would likely die if he made a miss-step around certain others. Some of the characters you yourself played back in the day generated a lot of fun because they were so no nonsense and chased down their goals mercilessly yet entertainingly.
I do not feel that level of danger any more, but would very much like to recapture it somehow. I do not know the best way to go about it.
PvP and PKing has been botched so many times that I think requiring a DM to proceed in it and for DMs to keep conflict going, even artifitially, is the best course of action. I just somehow wish there were other options.
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@Cunning:
No Mol, when things became a complete PK fest here I ended up leaving for an extended period, too.
Softer was a bad choice of words, but it certainly feels different here now. I still enjoy playing here, but I do miss worrying if I am going to be mugged in the slums, if a pc werewolf is going to eat me in the wilds, if i may be kidnapped and dragged to my death by a deranged cult.
I derived a lot of enjoyment by the perceived threat that my character would likely die if he made a miss-step around certain others. Some of the characters you yourself played back in the day generated a lot of fun because they were so no nonsense and chased down their goals mercilessly yet entertainingly.
I do not feel that level of danger any more, but would very much like to recapture it somehow. I do not know the best way to go about it.
PvP and PKing has been botched so many times that I think requiring a DM to proceed in it and for DMs to keep conflict going, even artifitially, is the best course of action. I just somehow wish there were other options.
Amen.
Tension = awesome
Risk = rewardI don't understand how people can derive fun from not being at eachother's throats 24/7.
edit: Couldn't there be a middle ground?
DMs, why not preserve your favourite plot-pushing characters by showering them with undroppable, mechanically-powerful loot (and I don't mean +1 with a nifty description). Call it a day and say you did all you could to safeguard this contributing character and if they died anyways then so be it. Let the invisible hand take care of the rest :P
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I don't understand how people can derive fun from not being at eachother's throats 24/7.
You are in the definite minority, fortunately. Not everyone is hardcore. Fun and intrigue can be had without CoA turning into LoL-wannabe.
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@Khamal:
I don't understand how people can derive fun from not being at eachother's throats 24/7.
You are in the definite minority, fortunately. Not everyone is hardcore. Fun and intrigue can be had without CoA turning into LoL-wannabe.
being at eachother's throats doesn't mean constantly duking it out. Three years ago I was part of a PvP concept that was fully immersed in PvP for a whole year and there was barely any deaths on both sides until the very end.
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People can develop that Tension and Risk vs Reward in other ways.
PvM when involving DMs gives me the buzz I seek and saught from traditional PnP games. PvP is ok, but not something I actively aim for. If I come across it, I deal with it, and aim to enjoy it. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
PvM gives me that tension. A horde of gibbering goblins surging on Castle Crag does not need players and PvP to develop tension. Nor does a Devil Dragon with an army of undead, which should be terrifying enough. This is not to say that it's a bad thing having Players on the "Other Side." It can add spice, but it isn't universally regarded as fun "being at each other's throats 24/7." Nor do I find it helpful when those who do seek what they regard as the Ultimate PvP and say, as I feel some are saying, "You're on our PvP server. Suck it up and get on with it." I exaggerate what is being said on purpose, but this is because I feel there is a real sense from a number of experienced players that the only way to really enjoy this server is to tackle other players in PvP, and if you're not engaged in PvP then you're wasting everyone's time.
Some people drive the conflict so hard at times, that others can be driven away.
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You can only go so far with scripted monsters.
You need a human behind that to smack the "fo real" in you, fo sho!
PVP and DM-possessed monsters using smarter tactics be keeping it realz.
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People can develop that Tension and Risk vs Reward in other ways.
PvM when involving DMs gives me the buzz I seek and saught from traditional PnP games. PvP is ok, but not something I actively aim for. If I come across it, I deal with it, and aim to enjoy it. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
PvM gives me that tension. A horde of gibbering goblins surging on Castle Crag does not need players and PvP to develop tension. Nor does a Devil Dragon with an army of undead, which should be terrifying enough. This is not to say that it's a bad thing having Players on the "Other Side." It can add spice, but it isn't universally regarded as fun "being at each other's throats 24/7." Nor do I find it helpful when those who do seek what they regard as the Ultimate PvP and say, as I feel some are saying, "You're on our PvP server. Suck it up and get on with it." I exaggerate what is being said on purpose, but this is because I feel there is a real sense from a number of experienced players that the only way to really enjoy this server is to tackle other players in PvP, and if you're not engaged in PvP then you're wasting everyone's time.
Some people drive the conflict so hard at times, that others can be driven away.
To be honest, the rise of the Eye cult (thought I know very little about them) is the only reason I came back to play. Because it brought back the PvP into the server. There was a few months which admittedly most players loved where everything was DM driven plots and very little PvP if at all and that removed a huge chunk out of the game for me.
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PvM is about as tense as sleepwalking or crossing the street when there are no cars in the middle of the desert in Nevada. The AI gets old quick, and is honestly pretty terrible. You seen it for a week, you seen it all.
A player is a much better hunter, and a much better prey.
To be frank, I think the reason people are so adamant about not wanting to get into mechanical PVP is because of the drastic ignorance of mechanical knowledge and this strange opinion that mechanics aren't necessary to roleplay.Well, they are. They are when you are playing NWN or D&D.
If they aren't, why not make CoA an IRC chat-room? There you can have all your fantasy exploring, non-threating interactions as much as you like without having all these mean, bad mechanics getting in your way.
Look, if you log into NWN after playing here for over a year you basically are telling me "Yeah, I know how this game works. I won't whine if I fall in PVP because someone spammed a Hold Person wand because I know how to counter it, but didn't. I won't cry someone used a charged Flame Arrow gem on me, killing me, because there's a counter and I didn't use it. I won't complain if someone ganks me out of invisibility, because there are plenty of precautions and I didn't take any of them. I'll just take note of what I did wrong and do better next character."
And all you guys saying "it isn't about mechanical PVP"? Well, then why is this even a discussion in the first place? If you all played your conflicts in such a manner that you don't have to deal with them through mechanical PVP, then there is no reason for this thread. But you don't. Maybe because it's only fun for so long? Maybe at some point, the IC thing to do is to kill? And that's why you need to get good at mechanics and should want a dangerous, risky world where choices have consequences, death has meaning and heroic acts result in either death or unforgettable memories.
I've never been asking for people to randomly FD each other, have I? I guess I'm just disappointed. Moloch, when he played characters, was ridiculously good at PVP. All his conflicts had style, build-up and good finales, at least as far as I saw.
Why now this emphasis on hurting nobody's feelings? Is this really what the server should be about, politically correct hugbox RP where nobody gets hurt or disappointed?
(I went pretty off-topic here. Feel free to ban me or delete the post, I probably deserve it.)
Look guys, I don't even know what I'm talking about. I haven't played here in like a year because I just feel way too stifled to anger anyone because they'll just take it personally, and the environment encourages that. Everyone needs to get along and the kinds of conflict I like have to be "safe" and require consent.
This slime-cult seems to have done something great from what I can tell from the forums! They're offered a credible threat without resorting to dumb "FD everyone, hurr durr", and now they've gone out and died. That's just the way these things work. They don't need (and shouldn't want) any DM intervention to keep the flame going. That just cheapens their accomplishments, and the accomplishments of the heroes who managed to bring them down.
If anything, this kind of thing needs to be encouraged.
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CoA censorship and care-bear preservation society inbound.
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IMO PvP should develop naturally and seem IC. When DMs are pulling string in the background to "keep conflict alive" then PvP starts to seem a bit unnatural to me. I like that it is stressed to find other reasons to not FD so people can keep playing and having fun. But I don't like, for example, running into a monster or enemy you would normally attempt to kill on sight, and in light of meta knowledge make gross exceptions for the sake of the game. You don't want things to accelerate in such a way, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
It's a double edge sword. Loosen up the pvp rules, and there will be more incidents of people FDing to the chagrin of other players. Tighten them and you get more complaints of favoritism and objectivism of the DM point of view. Trust the few, or trust the many . . .
I'll put my faith in the DM team, despite the fact that sometimes the PvP rules make conflict seem unnatural.