2010 Hak Debate
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I left my first server because I didn't like the hak. At that time one of the key features that attracted me to COA was the sheer amount that the community had been able to pull off without a hak. I really enjoy both COA and NWN as is. I also would kind of resent being forced to choose between playing on COA and having to alter my game.
A lot of you seem to see COA's gaming population as stagnant. However, in the past two weeks I have encountered two brand new players. And many of us do leave the game and return. We might spend a year away because senior year turns out to be really tough, there is a new baby on the way, or because work is very hectic at the moment. It is kind of nice when this happens to be able to log right back in and not have to worry about what the latest download is.
I really think COA is working well, and it has been for a long time. If it isn't broken, why try to fix it.
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We actually could split CoA into a hak and non-hak server and have few ideas on how to even make it feasible IC and fun for the setting, but–it doubles our hosting costs which are already 100$ a month.
My thoughts exactly. I'm not 100% sure, but as far as I can recall, there's a way to transport a character from one server to another just like they moved through an area transition?
The main problem with hak's isn't the "Oh, but it's cumbersome to download a hak" -part, but the "oh, which server I should join? Oh, that one requires a hak, I'll try something else". I mean, if I could join a new server and see how it rolls before deciding if it's worth to find, download and install the required haks… I would be pretty happy. Point is - it should be easy to check out a server.
Additionally: I was happy with how CoA looked before. Now, it looks even more fantastic. Could it look better? Sure. Would I turn away even a single potential new player to achieve it? Nah, there's no need.
The only things, IMO, which might want to be added through a hack, would be some new monsters, and some thematically really diverse tilesets. New spells? Too much hastle, and they seem to be buggy elsewhere where I've seen new spells implemented. New weapons? Sure, a lyre or fan or a really exotic weapon might look nice, but isn't really needed. New PrCs? Too few and they don't satisfyi the players (and they could be achieved through scripting stuff like skins etc), too many and they become too much hastle.
Seriously. Log in now. Then log in tomorrow. Log in every day, and count the amount of PrC's IG. Sure, they are ment to be hard to achieve, but what's the benefit of having 10 new PrC's if the current 12 go unused? Instead, lessen the IC and mechanical requirements to achieve a PrC.
(really, at the moment, only the Assassin and Pale Master PrC's are achievable realistically. Others require you, well, do nothing else (rp OR Mechanics wise) than aim at the PrC)On a completely other note, if you somehow manage to implement the Dread Necromancer base class as it is acording to the PnP, I'll quit my job and become a 24/7 coa player >.>
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I think it is possible to achieve some of this in the following manner:
A dev creates areas with the haks he wants for a one-shot event (possibly reusable) to use in a mini module. This module is hosted on a temporary server, which could simply be a PC owned by one of CoA's DMs. It is accessed by a temporary server portal somewhere in CoA, and the players can return to Arabel in the same manner.
The event would of course have to be announced in advance with names of the haks and links to the site where the haks can be downloaded.
One advantage would be that our devs would have no restrictions on which haks they might use for their events. It would simply be announced that if you want to go on next xxxday's event, then you need to download such and such a hak, and if you don't you'll crash horribly when you try to come along!
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Give us haks! We deserve to have a Drunken Master IG!
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When I first joined COA, as noob as I was about roleplay - I joined it because other servers I was clicking on wanted me to download things and I couldn't have been bothered. I stuck with COA because of this.
We will no doubt lose new players. You say were not getting new players anymore because NWN is so old? I don't think thats true. Servers still been going strong as it has for last few years and it certainly can't be from old players always players.
I would however like new content, but it may risk the server dieing.
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last night, I asked a group of gamers/RP'ers (my Sensei & a few others) who have played NWN in the past but are not current players:
"If you were looking to join a NWN server, would the necessity of downloading Haks put you off from joining?"
They all said, "As long as it wasnt CEP and it actually added to the game."
So - there you go.
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One thing I think people aren't noticing is they are looking to their own experience in their dislike of having to download a hak. Back in the day when NWN was newer, that made sense. And likely this community would not be what it is if haks were required.
Things are a bit difference now. New players do come, but not in the same number. Who is buying NWN1 now adays? Who is STILL playing NWN1? The hardcore gamers. I think this group is highly more likely to tollerate downloading a hak.
What we should be more worried about is who would leave because of a hak.
New players will still come. Maybe not as much as if the server had no hak, maybe more. But new players will still come because CoA is a good server with a good community.
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I'd rather you be creative with what you have, to be honest. You can do a lot awesome things with the set pieces, limited as they might be. It just requires a lot of work.
I don't like HAKs and I know quite a few people who would rather not want to download any, including myself. Also, you don't need HAKs for custom PRCs or spells, but again, it is a lot for work.
Less standard toolset monsters, more creative use of the models we have in unusual and interesting environments. Also, I see new players both on CoA and EfU all the time. Some who just bought the game for the first time, even. Actually quite a few lately.
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As long as the hak serves a purpose than i am fine with it.
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Pointed out by Lizard-man, things like the pure barbarian damage reduction and the fighter book, you lose there bonuses if you are subdued/killed/ or hit 0 hp. With haks this could be fixed no doubt.
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I forgot those bonuses are only for pure classes. In which case I haven't a clue how possible they might be to "fix" with haks!
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They can be fixed without haks, but just would take many hours of work.
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Well myself and my two sons came back to coa this year after a longist break from NWN and to be honest if i had needed a hak to do so i wouldn't of bothered.
This game is old the peaple that play it don't do so for the models and tiles sets or how they look.So no i wouldn't play here if you needed a hak to log on.
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From my perspective the simple fact of downloading a self extracting hak is not the issue that will stop new players joining the server.
I find the current situation of the server (too many quick changes) the main issue that will make a new player willing to join the server.
Oh, look, Sheriffs, a nice faction where my new cahr can fit in… oh, no, they moved out of town.
Well, let's play a Custodian. Oh, wait they pledeged alliance with Shadovar. What's that? mm... a kingdom within a kingdom? No a new one?
Who is in charge in the city? Will I break some law if I run naked wielding a hammer? Who's going to put me in jail? Mage Guild??? oh? Are they in charge? Yes? but not in the Southern quarter?
Uh?
Where can I find a set of rules on what's going on? the Website? No, it's outdated. The Forums? Well I get some weird information, there is a Queen that hold no power, many faction, everyone against everyone...So, 2 cents. Hakpak? No issues if it doesn't give headache to download and install. Worried about new players joining? Don't think it's because of a 3 mins file to download.
More stability please. -
i hate the idea of having to download anything..
updating the game from a clean install is annoying enough.however.
I do agree somewhat with what has been said about improvements..but I dont think they warrant the time and effort put in to create the haks.
and you may claim that one or two new players is not a lot to lose..but with a game this old… every new player counts..
I can count the number of new players i've met in the last 6 months who went on to stay in our server on one hand.this is and always will be the key deciding factor for me.. a download -will- turn away some people who couldn't be bothered to download the pack.
It always turns me away when I get adventurous and decide to check out a new server- nothing turns me off more than that dreaded
-"Attempting to log in….. failed - xxxx.hak required." -
last night, I asked a group of gamers/RP'ers (my Sensei & a few others) who have played NWN in the past but are not current players:
"If you were looking to join a NWN server, would the necessity of downloading Haks put you off from joining?"
They all said, "As long as it wasnt CEP and it actually added to the game."
So - there you go.
CEP detracts from the game? I don't understand.
Regarding CEP Only
I think, think mind you, that if you try to join pretty much any of the busier servers that most run CEP 2.3. There must surely be some reason for this. The same may well go for the highest rated modules on the vault.
I'm not an exponent for or against CEP personally, I only downloaded it to finish an exceptional series of modules by a single author. I've not got to the final module so haven't formed an opinion. But the very fact the guy chose to use it tells me something.
Frankly gameplay over graphics etc takes precedence for me every time. I guess that's my age and being bought up with PnP, D&D on intellivision (who remembers that?), The Bards Tale, Dungeon Master and so on.
Isn't there a kind of "side copy" of Arabel where the builders etc could run a blank Arabel not online with the latest CEP installed and decide on the pro cons of it and inform us of their considered opinion regarding it? Again, I don't know much about it but I thought it added to the game with heads and hats and different stuff
A final thing that just occured to me is anyone buying NWN for the first time would probably want to update the game with patch and CEP five minutes after hitting on a few servers anyway.
Regarding Haks in general.
I guess the kind of haks I did enjoy particularly and would like to see introduced to Arabel was a hak or haks used in a module that introduced proper little (sinister at night) alleyways in the city, caves and tunnels felt like caves and tunnels and everyone in the city had somewhere to live and a routine, ie all the shopkeepers and commoners went home or did different things with their day.
Anyways, I can take it or leave it. Had a hak been needed for Arabel I'd have got it, it's standard practise now. It's advertising the hak is the hardest part.
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CEP is a bloated mess of crap and crashes. It is the Gelatinous Cube of the NWN Vault; lumbering around the halls adsorbing everything it comes across.. sure, you might find a gem or two in it but the rest of it is just crap.
CEP went for quantity over quality and it just messed it up. The best way to go for a hack is to use Project Q as a base, then add in anything else you might want and create a CoA hack.
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then the question is, can we put in the additions that we want and keep it to a 10 mb hak
- heads
- phenotypes ( for pcs and monsters )
- usable hoods,disguise gear
- enough blanks so that dms can implement what they want and pop it in
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wait, is that 10mb that important? People have high-speed connections these days, it's the easy install that seems critical.
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10mb was mentioned is all
i have gb of haks for when i dabbled in other places and im sure others do as well
i think if i look at my total nwn folder for the entire game and things i have added its right at 17 gig