Being Inclusive and Arabel
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Some quick thoughts on the initial questions posed
Do you think it's not against OOC courtesy to be exclusive in DM/Scripted quest parties of todays CoA?
A poorly worded leading question. I won't adress it. The question I will adress is: "Do you think there is a problem with OOC exclusion in DM/Scripted quests?"
The answer is No, I don't. Obviously there will be some conflict between, for example, lawful peace officials and notorious criminals, and it's perfectly fine and to be honest expected that these two won't get along well enough to go whomping dire rats together. OOC courtesy is an excelent concept to observe, but it is second to Roleplay, wich is what this server is all about. OOC courtesy is a way to let us get along as players inspiet of character conflict, it is not a carte blance excuse to break character for quests and xps and loot. Furthermore, OOC Courtesy goes both ways, if you choose to make a divisive character (like giant barbarian wereboars who literally eat peoples fingers off their hands) OOC courtesty demands you not judge someone for telling you to go away.Should we be more inclusive in our playstyle than we currently are? Or is it just fine as it is?
CoA has an exceptionally inclusive playstyle. Top of the line as far as what my server hopping days have taught me.Is ignoring or avoiding interaction with other characters part of a healthy PvP, and therefore good for the server?
Poorly worded and leading question. Yes, if this was a thing that actually happened it would be bad. Luckilly for us all, this is at most very rare. Some notes on this is primarilly, not all players are interested in a conflict heavy playstyle, and for these people avoiding conflict interaction is actually the Recommended Approach.And if your character doesn't want interaction with the character, should you be OOCly exclusive as well?
I don't understand this question. If a character tells your character to sod off, that's that character telling your character to sod off. There's nothing OOC about it. No one has any obligation to include someone their characters wouldn't include. In fact, there is an expectation that you don't. You may be confusing this with OOC Courtesy, OOC Courtesy talks about how to not be a dick to people inspite of your character trying to pick a fight with theirs. It's about Respectful in Conflict, not about breaking character so people can quest and get loots easier. -
I'd dare say 50% of our time is spend on quests, so why not invite the opportunity to have conflict while you are getting that suh-weet xp?
In a case where you're facing off against a wereboar that eats fingers:
If you are an evil natured character: Would you try to hire the scumbag to eat someone elses fingers? Or, if you are in conflict with the beast, would you try to lure him along to try to eat his fingers instead?
If you are a good natured character (read: Not paladin): Would it be more harmful to leave an evil finger-eating wereboar alone in the woods/spire, or have it where you can see and ensure it doesn't go around eating dem fingers?
I can understand that avoiding a madman is a typical behavior coming from a commoner, but adventurers are different, seeing how used they are to work with all sorts of crazy shit. Why anyone would design their characters nature to be exclusive because someone is a crazy wereboar that eats fingers, is beyond my understanding.
There are ways beyond the "My character is good, so he can't work with ebul"-mentality. There are ways to break out of the box. If you find that way, you'll find out it's much easier to breed healthy conflict.
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@TheBlackSheep:
If you are an evil natured character: Would you try to hire the scumbag to eat someone elses fingers? Or, if you are in conflict with the beast, would you try to lure him along to try to eat his fingers instead?
If you are a good natured character (read: Not paladin): Would it be more harmful to leave an evil finger-eating wereboar alone in the woods/spire, or have it where you can see and ensure it doesn't go around eating dem fingers?
What about Lawful vs Chaotic too? Prime examples would be LE and CG characters, they would have radically different ways of going about things. A well played character on either of these two spectrums might struggle to find allies and friends if you only focus on the Good vs Evil aspects of a personality.
A Chaotic Good character might decide to take action and kill or remove a threat and then have the weight of the law and characters who support the ideals of Lawfulness oppose them, or would even Lawful characters forgive them because "they did the right thing"?
A Lawful Evil person might pursue goals and agendas that might be alienating to your character but have the committed any wrongs lawfully?
What nuances do either LE or CG bring? what agendas do they try to promote? what areas can you work with this character with? what areas must you oppose?
If your character is Lawful, can you work with an Evil character if they're Lawful?
If your character is Lawful, can you work with a Good character if they're Chaotic?
If your character is Chaotic, can you work with an Good character if they're Lawful?
If your character is Chaotic, can you work with a Evil character if they're Chaotic?I tend to find people focus quite heavily on the Good/Evil axis but neglect the Lawful/Chaotic axis and what entails. There are ways to reach out to people without OOC justifications based purely on your alignment if you remember the other axis.
Your full alignment is not there for your convenience, it's there to express the entirety of your character and motivations.
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The two axis is a nice idea, but three steps are too shallow to show all possible personalities' differences.
Can't we just roleplay people with all their flaws and such? -
You don't have to quest with someone to include them.
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A simplistic model is just that. IG, sometimes, often really, you need to dumb it down.
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@TheBlackSheep:
So, instead of looking to get the biggest party possible, we should look towards hiring an optimal group of maybe four or five with us on our adventures to get the best out of it? Should we therefore, limit the party cap of quests to ensure this?
If that's the case, we should also ensure that those who are left out of these parties also have a chance to do something. If you're taking all five super frontliners along, leaving all the bards and whatnot useless shadowmancer sorcerers out, they'll have no chance of doing anything as they're either too afraid to adventure outside on their own, or don't trust enough on the mechanical capabilities of others left behind. OOC courtesy, in this regard, is very important I feel, as the server's future depends on it.
It's not as cut and dry as "Don't bring along less than optimal people." You CAN bring along a few of these people, and generally we do. The problem starts appearing when you get into that higher number, 7-8+ party members (without maintaining the balance that those small parties still have of frontline/buffs/damage/utility) the quest starts turning into a total clusterfuck and people start dying or losing money on these quests. This is a reality of the systems in which we use to quest and too often I see it ignored only to find those parties walking back with a pile of corpses because they ignored basic party composition rules.
As far as giving those people left out something to do, I can only suggest that both parties be aware of who they are excluding based on logistical reasons and making sure they are able to come the next time. Keep a log, if you have to, that's pretty much what I do. Including people outside of questing by Roleplaying or giving them extra tasks that are suitable for their (inevitably squishy) PCs to accomplish and earn a reward from.
I also want to say that for the people who generally fall victim to this, I know it hurts but it is genuinely for the best. Too many times have I seen a group of people beg to come on a quest only to have half of them end up dead because the frontline couldn't compensate enough to protect them well enough. It sucks for EVERYONE on the quest when this happens, because noone likes seeing other people lose their xp (except the DMs.) Give them a little- Even if it's just a promise you'll take them on the next one.
@TheBlackSheep:
I feel like this is summed up pretty easily. If you are excluding someone out of OOC fear of losing, do not do that.
Someone mentioned a rule once. DON'T BE A DICK.Thinking outside the box for the sake of inclusion does not mean you're acting out of character. I do like what people said here. IMO, if you find your character abilities of inclusion limited by your own fear of loosing- you need to get over that fear.
I also see good examples made by a number of people here. Keep them coming!
Again, this only goes so far. It's a reasonable thing to say for most PCs in order to foster rivalries and relationships but it does eventually have to stop or it will go on forever and I find that it is incredibly out of character to not draw a line SOMEWHERE.
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You missed my point entirely.
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Yeah guys I just got off the phone with Wizards of the Coast and they said not being inclusive sucks for everyone.
In all honesty, a wise man once said DNA and those are words we should all strive to live by. Afraid to bring those few extra people on the quest because you think you'll TPK? Challenge accepted, DNA. You don't want a little sample of your secret plots to get spilled to the world and start a scare in the Citadel? Yes you do, DNA. etc.
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This is a debate that is almost two decades old, and if there was an easy fix it would have been found already. While its true that some of us are assholes, we are all pretty smart people and would have figured it out if it was something with a solution. The trick is to do your best to be inclusive of even your enemies on one side, and not get so offended because you were excluded on the other.
Just to mirror some things that people have said that does fit the wisdom that has come from this endless debate;
Involving people does not mean questing with them. You want to redeem an evil guy? Great, that can lead to some interesting rp, but you still shouldn't be questing with them unless your character is completely gullible and believes anything anyone says at face value. Your paladin really hates that evil dark gnome? Get up in his face, don't just ignore him. ECT ECT ECT.
And, while this is not the real topic, don't be a pussy afraid to take chances. Not sure about that shady guy that joined your questing group, but your character has no reason to doubt him? Take him along and see what comes from it. Party not the optimal norm for a quest? Be smart so you don't get a TPK, but its ok to fail in the process of telling a better story.
And that is what this server is all about, a better story. How powerful you are, how many plots you won, it doesn't mean shit. The characters that people remember from ten, fifteen years ago, they didn't always win. In fact, they more often then not lost, they just did so in such an epic fashion that it stood out in peoples minds. They are the people who won CoA, because they got the most out of the game by doing it right.
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As a person who genuinely gets quite (read: VERY) frustrated if I die due to things that are outside of my control, I can safely say that I don't like bringing more people than is necessary on a quest unless I know I can trust at least a few of them to not do stupid shit. Nobody enjoys dying in games, especially when there is a very real consequence to dying. Sure, XP is cheap, but goddamn it stings like a bitch when you die because someone else doesn't know what the hell they're doing, and you KNOW that they don't know what they're doing.
That said, I will involve as many people as is possible as long as it makes IC sense, I don't pull punches and I don't expect people to pull them for me, so I won't take a blackguard on a quest as a Paladin, but I will take someone I'm trying to redeem on a quest, because, despite what everyone else seems to think, quests are where friendships are made, if you at least roleplay on them. After all, it's only logical that you become very fond of someone after you kill a hundred men and monsters together, and save eachothers life a few times with a well timed heal.
I'm starting to ramble at this point, but I suppose I'll end my point on this, you can't redeem someone (or even interact with them in an interesting/meaningful way) if you're both level two, with no DMs online, and your only options are to stay within a three transition radius from the city (sometimes even less than that!) or you'll end up getting destroyed by mobs that you can't face, and then you're both angry because you tried to do something cool, but ate dirt instead. Questing fixes this, questing is a very vital part of a server, because chatting in the Spire is all well and good, but if it's a choice between chatting in the Spire for a few hours, eating dirt trying to interact with someone outside of quests, or doing something genuinely enjoyable that helps grow your characters and gives you a better reason to try and redeem someone outside of making eye contact with them (Such as owing them your life), I say go right ahead.
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Just to on the topic of being inclusive in quests in regards to dangers of carrying dead weight my way around it is to look at the level range and decide what quest i can take this party on without them being useless or getting me killed, likely the reason hanse tree has to be done two or three times more often then the next most popular level 8 quest, that said i'll happy take dead weight onto a team party killer but i've a beneficial position in that regard as i play this server 95% for role play, scripted quests and role playing on said quests, if i had a plot to be pushing two later and my level 10 who was meant to take on that dread knight is now a level 7 with no potions to his name i might be more concerned about the risks.
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Do not quest with dragons that have been color coded for you convenience
And you definitely do not want me on a party I am the worst person on a quest period(the only exception might be a quest where certain skills are needed and utilized, most quests are not like that, so problem solved) I am terrible to take I do nothing, but I never pick from the loot
Not that that justifies my laziness
I make excuses to not go now to prevent others having to deal with me being along
This is not sarcasm, I bring dangers I cannot handle and is unfair to the othersI do not worry about getting kicked out or excluded now
It did bother me but something has changed
I am not bothered at being excluded
Heck it was my own fault anywaysAnd there have been misunderstandings
I was invited or so I thought to a exclusive group by a NPC
I felt all special and stuff
And I was even given a contact word. Super special
Then after I did try to contact said NPC I was spirited to the chat area and told I need to work through pcs, that moment my confidence was and still is shattered (I basically did try to do the in game of thing but got stonewalled, so I walked away and never looked back)
I do not really care about plots and stuffI do try to help new characters and now I am able to, that is the part of the game I had always enjoyed and now it is back, I do not need to learn or share plots, my knowing history makes no difference to the big picture and if you want to keep it secret you definitely should not let me know
I have always hated people hidding information
Which is why I share what I learn, you want to keep that portal word a super secret do not tell my characterDo not worry I will eventually figure it out and your precious word will no longer be your special place
I avoid traveling with others because of several in game reasons now that people will have to find out in game
On a side note pcs have tried to include me in something, but I derailed that in game and had lots of fun doing that, that is the way my character is
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I think education is actually a good way forward on some of these.
If you're the leader of a group, a paladin or something, or a martial character with some knowledge of warfare or adventuring, I don't think it's out of place to stop the party - buffs or not - and have 'the talk'. I've seen it happen on a few characters where before the party leaves they will say something like, "If you do not follow my orders, I will dock your pay. Do something stupid, you get cut out of the loot."
It's pretty harsh but behind it, with new players, you both get some good interaction (your PC looks smart!) and they get to come along on a quest they wouldn't normally come with. I think we take for granted these days that everybody knows the potion meta. Potion meta is love, potion meta is life. And when someone doesn't know something about their class or they're playing it 'wrong' (read, dying frequently, or being 'totally useless') we tend to look at them and not take them on quests.
Sometimes I just let the stupid people get themselves killed. Once I stopped the entire party just to watch the one guy who was running ahead of us pull all the spawns and die. He stopped doing that. I don't remember what character that was on, but it was oddly gratifying to watch and it's a tradition I'm carrying forward on my rogue. Want to run to the loot chests? Better be prepared to dodge traps. Lol.
The character I'm on now mocks people like that, but I also go out of my way to save them from their own stupidity sometimes (if I can and it doesn't threaten me too much). But I've always been of the general belief that if someone doesn't know how to do something on an OOC level but their character might, it would be good to help them along ICly or OOCly.
If they don't pull weight, just cut them out of the loot pick at the end - but make sure they know WHY you cut them out of the loot pick. It's a learning experience.
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Couple things.
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If someone in your faction is actively excluding you or withholding loot from you you should call them out IC for that. That's no way to treat you. If they then reply with "get better or we won't help" that's when eat crow and tell them to help you out then, damnit. They can teach you, ICly or/and OOCly, exactly what you need to do and know.
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People generally aren't actively excluded on a normal quest. It's the difficult quests that require not bringing 'dead weight'. These quests are meant to challenge well-equipped, rich PCs who don't mind losing a lot of gold or who are looking for a challenge. Bringing someone who does not pull weight on one of those is hazardous for everyone involved - mostly that PC in question.
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Normal quests, especially in the lower level ranges, can be carried by 1-2 decent people so you should have no problem joining in! Ask IC (or OOC on IRC or a tell) for advice if you seem to be having struggle on them.
That said try to immerse yourself in the experience, too. What better way to roleplay a low-level adventurer than to admit you got a lot to learn and ask counsel or training from other PCs? There's definitely going to be folks willing to teach you.
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Something that should be clarified here, is that this topic doesn't really stem from some issue of people not bringing dead weight, or people questing with optimal parties.
The underlying issue this topic discussed was that people don't bring their enemies on quests. That people who take their characters in an antagonistic direction gets less and less scripted quest time for xps and gps.
This topic seems to have descended into some powerquesters flamewar, and that's dumb because there really isn't an issue with it. The only two reasons I've seen people get kicked off of quests when playing, are either someones character is enemies with someone elses character, or that player really doesn't like the other player. Both of those are, in by book, entirely acceptable reasons not to bring someone on a quest.
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Kicking your enemy / some evil guy as a paladin out of a quest party is roleplaying.
Same with not taking a know lycan. I mean, that can't be the topic of this thread as that's common sense. -
Oh why hello there!
You know, I use to run server wide quests all the time. Made sure to include as many people as possible into my "quest trains" to the point were people would poke me occly to run oneā¦ And that never bothered me, I enjoyed doing it.
However what started bothering me was a trend I noticed of players making "bully" characters. They used the same tired excuse over and over again "I'm the frontliner, I deserve more." or just "I used up all my potions this is mine." and when you had a problem with it they would threaten to pvp you. I said fine... I won't take these characters along... So I barred the CHARACTERS from the quests. But the same people kept making the SAME mentality over and over again in ALL of their characters. They were "annoyed" that I wanted to split out the loot fairly. To roll for it. So what they started doing was just picking up stuff and walking off with it before I could even TYPE a reply and I type fast.
So you know what? I said fuck it.
I stopped caring and stopped playing with people. Locke and I made new characters Wing and Eva with the sole purpose to create a 2-man party that could do anything they wanted on the server.... And that? Was fun. Because we didn't NEED the assholes that kept ruining the fun we were having running quests trains. And the only people we let in? Were people that know it was about the ROLEPLAYING and had some occ courtesy.
~Phantom
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Splitting loot fairly is not: Everyone gets equal. That is splitting loot equally. Those who do more DESERVE more, that is fair! Now, abide by that if you will, but don't call it unfair. Unfair is when someone who contributes next to nothing gets the same as the one who emptied his inventory to pull the party through.
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Splitting loot fairly is not: Everyone gets equal. That is splitting loot equally. Those who do more DESERVE more, that is fair! Now, abide by that if you will, but don't call it unfair. Unfair is when someone who contributes next to nothing gets the same as the one who emptied his inventory to pull the party through.
I don't understand what your post has to do with the overall, please try to keep on topic. This is about players becoming isolationists on YOUR server. And I am one of those players explaining why I adopted that mentality. You're one of the players that pushed me that way. Perhaps it's time to change your mentality or you'll loose more players.
~Phantom