DM spicing and extra "reimbursement"
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I don't want it to be a taboo to talk about such stuff so i hope others feel the same way.
DM spice is fun, most enjoy DM spice. It's a great breakup from the usual quests and makes things really challenging. Sometimes so challenging that in order to overcome it, you need to use such an amount of supplies that you'll end up at a HUGE loss considering the usual quest's rewards. This is when DMs should take into consideration what the players spent on it and how much they added to the difficulty of it and consider how much they should add to the end reward. It is only nice that when the difficulty goes up a huge step, that the rewards go up a bit as well.
In the case i am talking about, which was tonight, the DM -did- say we missed the container or did not search a specific area where it was, that had some extra rewards. I will say for my parts that if the DM saw we were missing it, throw in some sort of hint to give us a reason to go that way. O the other hand, i'm not a fan of hiding it in the first place but that's just my personal opinion.
I'll just show as an example how big the step up in difficulty was.
Used: 4 charges of barkskin (84 at the cheapest source (336)), 4 shield potions (40 at cheapest source, 160), 2 strength potions and 2 dex potions and 2 endurance potions (cost around 100 each, 600), a stack of cure serious (around a hundred at the cheapest source. 1000), a stack of cure critical potions (120 at cheapest source, 1200), 4 haste potions (175 at cheapest, 725), 3 displacement potions (330 at vendor, 990), 5 charges of fruitcake (estimate at around 500g), half a cure serious wand (400), 2 aid potions (160), 3 bless potions (90).
This comes to a total of 6 thousand golds worth of consumables used, by one player. Granted, i probably used the most by far.
The end reward was 226 gold and two scrolls i took as compensation for what i spent.
For my part, the additional rewards being hidden away takes a HUGE chunk out of such experience for me. You walk away feeling kind of cheated. Not a hint was given that there was additional reward nor to its location. I'm not upset with the DM in question, do not mistake this for a rant. I just want DMs to be at least jsut a little bit aware of how huge the gap in normal rewards and additional rewards it can be when the difficulty is upped so much and i know some others felt the same way. It increases the chances that the next time it happens, some players feel it is better to walk away (you'd be amazed at how often i get tells suggesting such) when they see strong DM spice up ahead.
I hope noone is offended by this, it's a feedback and it's better to discuss such than to have anyone build up resentment because of it.
I SHOULD mention though that the spice was really fun and really challenging and in every other regard a very fun affair!
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I would agree to this. The spice was really fun and challenging but was a major resource sink to many in it. It will no doubt make few of those who survived have even harder time in the next event and they might not survive it because of it.
Though it is a minor thing, it tends to leave a bad taste in your mouth and might ruins the entire great time had.
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For the note, DMs often do this.
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All the more reason to discuss this then, imo :)
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I remember when gmork loaded a chest with potions for us after a long order-relay run, left, and the server crashed right after we picked the stuff up. :D
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I used to hate it in V3 when players would check the lists and see which DM's were online before going on quests and it used to happen alot.
But yes increased rewards would be a good thing to bare in mind maybe not for Garder as he always uses more potions than anyone else :twisted: -
I think it makes sense for challenging DM spice to lead to severe losses on occasion. Most people only run certain quests because of the rewards involved, since they already know what to expect. Challenging DM spice that causes major losses throws uncertainty into the mix and makes things more exciting, and I think it even pushes people to try new things. I think people get too comfortable relaxing and pressing the play button on every quest, where every reset is just a rewind button to go through the same process over and over again.
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While it Agree 100% that rewards should reflect risks, I also tend to set various 'win' conditions with my own events personally, and quite a lot of the time, players don't reach the best level I have set. Most likely, they hit the bottom level, because everyone was just soloing in the same direction, instead of stopping and roleplaying for a bit, or seeking some other way than direct assault. Often times, I even leave a means to get through without violence (what is this none violence you speak of Zool????) which never yields the mega rewards, but actually turns out to be the best gain, because you use next to no consumables to reach the end.
So even though you might have used epic monster killing skillz to take down a hoarde of super freaky orcs, you may have made so much noise, and caused so much devasation that some of the tribe decided to pack up and leave, taking a bunch of their best stuff with them.
And Secret doors are like a staple in DnD, and they normally have treasure behind them. Whats the point in them if you give the same treasure reward out, wether they are found or not?
All these things need to be taken into consideration, and more. It isn't -just- as simple as checking how much GP in supplies was used, and then returning it, and adding on a profit. Did any of you get a FREE raise? (shouldn't happen anywhere near as much as it does nowadyas in my opinion, but people tend to complain about DM events when they can actually die) People DO die on quests (not as much as would make the quests evidently challenging enough though, again in my opinion) Sometimes there is a TPK on a quest too. Those are losses (or should be!!!)
It's possible that quests are just such easy gp/xp that people are so used to never losing, they now feel it isn't a part of the game. Without losses, wins are just empty rewards.
Again, I would like to re-iterrate, I agree in general with the OP. I am simply explaining there is alot more to it than GP loss/gain ratio.
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I see your points and would like to say once again, i loved the spice itself and i liked the challenge. And as i already said, i would have loved if there had at least been clues to the stash, since we did explore all the areas that we found save one, because we were simply out of supplies, spells and manpower at that point.
I do not want to scare off future spice, just pointing this out. And there is also a difference between coming out on a loss where you spend 3 thousands worth and get a thousand back, and where you spend 6 thousands worth and get 226 golds back ;)
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I tend to treat DM events as expensive fun events, I will not participate in them if I do not have a set level of supplies, so it is highly unlikely I would do a couple that are time wise close together.
Also, when I run out of supplies, if the event has a exit… ....I take it (the last one I observed was on sunday, no i did not leave because a lack of supplies, i left because my time to play was up, that does happen to all of us, when you leave early you miss the potential of rewards, in this case the XPs, I am ok with that)
the vast majority of DM events will be quite dangerous and hence expect to use a lot of supplies, there is a risk reward thing involved (reward in these events being fun and the xp), you will not see any events tailored towards just RP, as much as i would love to see one, that is hardly fun for the player base as a whole, the DMs have to do what keeps the players as a whole happy, and have they done that? I would say yes, in spite of things that could use improvement that have been suggested(CB makes some valid points that do merit attention...when CB says something..I listen), the server is doing well for a game that no longer has gamespy support
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I agree completely Darlene. It's just in this case it was a spiced quest and not an event per se :)
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I think it makes sense for challenging DM spice to lead to severe losses on occasion. Most people only run certain quests because of the rewards involved, since they already know what to expect. Challenging DM spice that causes major losses throws uncertainty into the mix and makes things more exciting, and I think it even pushes people to try new things. I think people get too comfortable relaxing and pressing the play button on every quest, where every reset is just a rewind button to go through the same process over and over again.
You win some, you lose some. In general we are very aware that spice is hard and try to make up for it.
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I agree about dm events and the like being a huge expense a lot of the times. But I'm pretty sure it's hard to equal it out. Particularly when there're like 1+ pcs and only 2-3 of them spend gp on pots in the front while the rest use arrows.. Then it comes down to the pcs to rp who deserves most. But definetly DMs should be rewarding more. Particularly for newer pcs..
And not to sound douche but I find it fine when some events just drain you for a lot. Since some pcs just have a huge amount on consumables and they should have it all drained just to equal out the challenge against other pcs who don't. -
I always wonder, when there is a DM intervention, how can my character progress further. I rarely look upon the "material" reward (or I tend to).
Also I tend to avoid "spiced" events where the main scope of the party members is a "point and click" festival.
it's a very difficult topic to discuss because so many different aspects of gameplay (mechanics and non-mechanics).
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The loot you earn in quests is so that you can splurge out in DM events. I dont think that anyone will argue against that point.
And as Almadyr points out, the more you shine in the DM event (by being your character, not neccesarily fighting) the more likely you are to progress your story and that is the real reward.
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The point mentioned by Zool that I havent seen discussed is the non violent way of getting through events. In this case of course it was quest spice so there probably was no way of picking that path. I love it when such choice exists, but it is so rarely followed.
I ll take the chance though to remind people not to ignore the possibility of that choice. I 've often been in parties where one or 2 characters try to engage in RP and to possibly find such solution, but eventually get dragged into non stop combat as the only way to end the event/DM quest. They are either ignored or kindly heard, then ignored and the party goes on killing. Those characters tend to be non frontliners and most often of the utility build variety.
To the DMs: When the above happens, keep in mind how hard is for that character, no matter how high his persuade skill is, to actually convince players to go their way. Not only because of player mindset that tends towards action hack and slash ways, especially when playing a frontliner, but due to the IG mindset of a frontliner as well. I mean I do not accuse those that prefer that way, their characters are made like that as well so they do act IC, at least in most cases.
So maybe its up to the DM to do something to enhance the convincing power of such character. An emote that clearly shows how expensive and impossible would a full frontal assault against an orc camp would be for example.
To players: When you find yourself in such a position, take time to RP and think like the character would. Just because you play a mean fighter or barbarian that is fully equipped and well built, doesnt mean you have to win through the most direct path (combat) every time. Your character might be a fearless veteran of war, but usually he is also acharacter that can assess situations and give room to others to shine through their skills. Who knows, that bloody ranger might actually find a path behind enemy lines given time, that bard might convince the orc leader to let you in the camp, hells even let you sleep in his tent (yeah right). Wake up and kill every orc easily during the night!
I m sorry for derailing slightly. On CBs comment, yeah sometimes rewards are underwhelming, and huge loss occurs. A better assessment of cost vs gain is always good. I do disagree though on chests that are hidden. Hidden stuff is great. But I do expect a hint from the DMs especially if a character has maxed search skill (k maybe not maxed but at least trained). If a few warriors completely untrained in finding stuff where killing monsters though, I would not expent any hint? Why would anyone play anything other than good melee classes if utility classes cannot shine?
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Potions of Cure Serious Wounds: 800gp
Wand of barkskin: 2000gp
Ripping up a necromantic cult: PricelessPersonally I think the best way around this is to stop trying to compete with actual calculable losses altogether, and give some cool non-standard or even unique loot at the end. Unfortunately that takes a while to make up and is generally not worth the effort when you could have spent that time doing something actually IG. I tried this before and it took a solid hour to hash out something for a party of eight.
Either way, I don't know what the situation was here, but there's a lot of reasons that risk:reward becomes impossible to gauge well. If there's a large difference in party level, or if a few guys are able to steamroll everything when others are not (in open events where you have everyone from level 10s to level 1s, I actually appreciate it if the tough guys gimp themselves - "Great Barbarian Hero Conan will fight without shirt and use only bare fists for glory of Uthgardt".
High reward DM quests do tend to require mechanical ability to get past the risk side of things, this is true, but at least as far as I go, I usually only run those as rewards for player plots and activity anyways. Just because high reward is off the menu doesn't mean that a challange is as well. A DM quest isn't complete until every party member has gotten to Near Death at least once!
It's not the first time people have walked right past (sometimes critical, e.g. raise dead) supplies in a quest. We are aware of the need for reward to balance out risk, and strive to make it work – but there will always be issues. You don't need to think we're out to screw people over. The only DM Events I've run which I deliberately left unrewarding were plot events where the reward sought for was never gold as such.
Also I did make some custom loot for everyone on a quest once to help balance out any issues with reward imbalance. I never saw a single one of them used or do more than sit in someone's inventory with 50 charges. :(
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ah..DM spice on a quest
fades back to very distant memory I remember doing the Bresk quest with Rav when some spice happened, two characters ended up dead, and one was perma dead.
Rav got separated from the party, and was promised something neat (it was only implied never actually laid out or detailed) all i needed to do was to get the heart from one of my companions, hmmm..could be a problem there i thought..but i will give it a try
I get back with the party, they were so busy they hardly noticed I was missing, but in the ensuing adventure, two of our comrades fell, left in a room…with Rav....i was going to procure one of the hearts. But the need passed, as when i came out of the room to see the undead fellow trying to talk to the party. They promply attacked him and vanquished him in short order
Rav was like.."oh well..nothing ventured nothing lost", then the party surrounded me..asked me if i knew that thing was in the place, I said of course i did, we were talking, they were ready to kill me immediately and asked why I would talk to it
I then related he was a poor hound archon who was cursed by the bresks, he came to me to relate this tale because he seen i was wearing a Bresk outfit (which I had been wearing at that time..Bresk as a house was long gone, and i figured why not now, i was after all once a member before i was asked to leave..not fired, asked to leave)
I told them the archon needed the parties aid to be restored to his former glory and they werre to be instrumental in this endeavor. I was grilled "why did you not tell us this" to which i answered, you were so eager to rush ahead and clear this place of everything tainted, no one stood still long enough to hear my whispers (remember Rav always spoke at a whisper).
The party gathered the dead and we limped back to have them raised in arabel, and they were preparing to make a rescue mission to aid this Archon, I told them....you do realize you killed him that will be of little use now
Oh..and Rav was not near death even once in that quest..though many of the party was numerous times (remember 2 had perished as well)
The DM involved at the time said some very nice things to me after that event, those kind words were worth more to me than any xp or loot, which are now long gone
Bottom line? I guess the point is to have fun and try to roll with the punches and make lemonade when given lemons
but that being said, it would not hurt if spice had some pluses..pluses like wands given to people who the DMs know will use them to aid themselves and others (as opposed to sitting in a inventory forgotten)
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Potions of Cure Serious Wounds: 800gp
Wand of barkskin: 2000gp
Ripping up a necromantic cult: PricelessThis would be 100% accurate with my thoughts if the last phrase was: "Using the fact we ripped an entire necromantic cult to dig in favor or more plots: priceless"
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I feel that there is misunderstanding on the meaning of my original post. Noone is complaining about spending resources on dm quests. It's simply when the spawns are made so much stronger on a scripted quest that just to survive, a huge amount of expendables needs to be used or turn back. Turning back is not that much fun for anyone. I'm not even saying that we should even come out ahead, but throw us a little bone when we've spent thousands of gold worth of consumables to survive your spawns. Maybe even make SOME of those added rewards hidden, but not all of them. The spawns were not that hidden after all.