Ninga looting in the elven text thing
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I am sorry that i have upset people by looting the chest in the hullack tomb, i have to admit i didnt even think about how much of the contents to take as i had my heart pounding in my chest as the Cogers were running across the room to it as i collected.
That said i can appreciate why Count did teleport us there, even though it was a 'bonus' to the MG…
A very deep tip of the hat to the Mage Guild crew today, especially Ikul for Akmin Iras-Elmith. It was an incredibly rough situation given the circumstances, and I was on the verge of anxiety the whole time, but I think you all handled it incredibly well. Thank you for that.
I spent the entire thing on the edge of my seat. I'd like to thank the Legion players for not finishing me off on the spot, even if they had the motive.
Well done on both sides, I think I got pretty lucky there in a few spots, and I'm looking forward to seeing the results of crushed old friendships.Also, thanks for the MG folks at my side, in particular Monty who gave me a few messes to clean up.
That was one of the most nail-biting trials ever, thanks to the Legion for going along with it and being good sports rather than letting heads fly. Monty was hilarious in court with his low charisma and Akmin a regular theatric at the opposite end of the spectrum, but Haar and company stole the show by roleplaying a "character weakness" for law and order when push came to shove. Kudos to you guys for that
Had any of the people teleported in been in anyway capable of standing up to the 2 opponents then things might have progressed differently, but i know that Fyananamoac was utterly helpless to combat them and so acted in character to do what she does best, i hid.
So again, appologies to those i 'wronged' by taking all the loot, it was an instinctive action and not designed to agravate others that had spent time working through the plot too.
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It's a game. A lot worse than a DM planting three people - who'd have trouble handling a skeleton warrior together - with non-criminal rivals between them and the treasure they both seek has happened before.
@Ol'n'Creepy:
When did it turn into WIN and SUCCEED? :(
This hyper-competitiveness does no one any favours. Why is it, that when things worse than this have happened in the past, people have not abandoned characters? In my experience it's because they have been having fun playing their character, not getting their fun by "winning". This was a little side-quest out of the blue, not the kind of server-spanning apocalypse level plot that has had the "hard work and effort" - two words I never want to have to associate with playing on CoA - of a great many overturned by the daring, creative and unexpected actions of a few.
No one is upset about the WIN how many times does it have to be said it's not about the treasure. It about the situation being forced upon a certain group of players.
And to be honest this isn't the first time this has happened in the last few month. Why do think the player base has dropped it's because players are feeling like plots and their game time is being railroaded.
But all we keep hearing is that it's about the Win and the Loot and that is not the case at all. This why we are upset and so many are talking of leaving but no one seems to care or they just think it's an empty threat.
This much, I can agree with. Player intrigue drops with DM intervention. People don't go out of their way to spin their own webs if and when DMs start dictating events.
This is nothing new, however, no more than FD regulations. DMs have for years now played sides against each other. If "win" and "loot" do not factor into this, then what have you lost? The Guild PCs took a huge risk by doing what they did. No faction is suddenly depleted because of a PvP bloodbath. If you take out the fact that something valuable was stolen or gained, this was just another conflict sparked.
I can appreciate being upset over this, and that I'm playing a character on the "wrong side" to be taken seriously at all, but it's surreal that what was meant to be a fun side-quest for factions has caused such bitterness. I notice this a lot, not just concerning this particular DM quest. There is less rolling with the punches, less acceptance that what has happened is irreversible; people realise that DMs are open to discussion and therefore server events are open to discussion and roleplaying ends up having less effect on CoA than a few forum posts written out of character.
I know people in the MG who would not take a treasure being snatched from under their noses due to a DM's actions happily. This is not something directed at one side in particular - infact I'd say DM intervention that hasn't resulted in a benefit to someone has almost always resulted in particularly bad feelings arising. No one, absolutely no-one complained when Akdul and Belrak turned Eveningstar upside down, even though the good-guys it seemed never even stood a chance. It was an epic battle where the good guys were falling like flies. What happened last night was an epic race to the last treasure by people who could not possibly have faced their rivals head-on. No one was prepared for it. The only thing to do is to roll with it, which both sides did very well in-game.
TL;DR version:
1) CoA is not a competition. Losing, or not being the favourite ____ in game, is not the same as losing CoA. It's up to you as a player to make fun for yourself and others out of situations.
2) DMs have always done this kind of thing.
3) If hard work and effort are what you are putting into CoA rather than enthusiasm, you've got to be prepared for arbitrary loss, because that is also a fact of CoA - people have escaped jail with hanse seeds, last-minute traitors have caused demons to be released instead of slain.
4) DM decisions should not be a point of discussion in an OOC forum. Let the DMs police their own as they always have. Otherwise it turns into a situation where OOC forum posts affect CoA more than roleplaying or intrigue. I'm not saying to not mention things that upset you, I'm just saying that there should be a point where it is fact that your character lost out somehow, and it is up to you as a player to find a way to carry on having fun after that.
5) DM involvement in plots outside of points of reference is inversely proportional to player intrigue in that plot.
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I’m going to keep this discussion open but monitor it closely. If we can learn anything from the history of CoA forum debates it is that these are the sort that can get out of hand where there are emotions involved. So let’s try and keep this civil and productive, and remember the DM Team is debating this event behind the scenes at this very moment.
Cheers.
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I feel the action of porting persons into the very end of a DMless quest was wrong and goes against, in principle, everything that made this server a fun place to be the last six plus years. Happy to speak with any that wish off line.
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I'd like to publicly address this concern that the Legion was deprived of a success they had earned. Players'point of view is for its very nature, lacking. Saying the MG was ported in the tomb when the Legion had earned the treasure is incorrect. The MG was in another tomb, and had figured out the location of the last tomb, and were headed there. Meanwhile, the Legion/CoG had NOT accessed the treasure. They had figured out the right spell, but they were standing before the door helplessly, because the scroll they had bought failed (using a scroll with UMD requires a roll). They would have had to return back to the city, buy several more scrolls, and return. If they would have done it, of course. Meanwhile the MG could have arrived to the tomb before them. What I did was to adjust the timeline, nudging both groups so that they would have been at the tomb simultaneously and they could have battled for the treasure, deeming everything that springed from that confrontation much more rewarding than the possession of the treasure itself. I ported three memebers of the MG to the tomb, and I spawned 5 scroll of Tasha in the inventory of the member of the Legion. There you go. Many unfortunately felt deprived and cheated, and could not enjoy the awesome confrontation that came.
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BAd bad: Ninjalooting is still ninjalooting.
Goodie good: Nice for bringing the intrigue and several factions to collide and make things interesting. That I Applaud.
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Sounds like two factions being put head to head. And with the outcome it sounds like there is a story to follow as well. I miss the part where the complaints come in.
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Would it have been less frustrating if the Guild PCs who turned up somehow defeated those in their way and then took the treasure?
Is there a necessity that only those good at getting other characters to 0hp should be able to do something in PvP legitimately? These three couldn't, so they did the next best thing - to try and distract while one of them stole the treasure.
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I suppose things might have been less confusing for the parties involved if what was going on was clearly communicated at the time, and the players given a choice of how to play it out. They might well have come to a similar conclusion, or even Like Lizard-man, being on the side that ended up with the 'loot' (although personally only benefitting marginally), I think I'll be biased somewhat, but it seems at least Count's intention was well-meant here.
I think everyone is unhappy at some part of how this played out, regardless of who 'won', but there doesn't seem to be much of an IC problem to me. OOC probably both sides have/had a feeling of 'WTF is going on here?! no fair!' once the three MG characters disappeared from tomb A and turned up in tomb B surprising both the Legion and their Allies in tomb B and the 3-and-a-half MG-characters left behind in tomb A.
I don't really like inter-faction conflict that much, but appreciate that it is something that's needed, and this certainly has caused some of that, which is positive.
A lot of people are unhappy, so milk was definatly spilled here. Everyone is aware of that, and it probably helps the people involved to cope with it, and get an idea of eachothers position on it, to cry over it a little. But all in all it seems not worth it to let it ruin (y)our fun.
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The problem is not who got the treasure or the conflict generated. Its how it all happened. If the MG had raced to the hall while the CoG/Legion group was racing to find the needed scrolls, the race would've been fair. However it would have turned out would've been IC and the conflict real. I guess the timing was very wrong. If they had been ported at the entrance of the tomb and walked it like everyone else and come up on the group while they were deciding what to do to open the door, it would have worked out fine. Its the fact they were brought in when the others had finished all the hard work of finding the place, walking the maze, fighting the spawn and figuring out the riddle. Then as they were about to get their reward for their hard work, in comes 3 char out of nowhere, ninja loot the reward dry and from what I heard, left deadly traps behind to trap in the opposition. Right there two rules were broken. One being stealing all the end reward when someone else did all the work to get it and laying traps excessively.
Using distraction and invisibility was fine as conventional PvP would've been pointless and it was IC to PvP like this but was it necessary to ninja loot everything? Also, from what I hear, the plot item was brought straight to the mage guild, put in storage and the player loged. This kind of block potential follow through of the conflict. If the item had been passed to another MG that going to be still online, that would've help keep the conflict alive.
Even if the DMs say it will not happen again or its not what it looks like, there is a lost of Trust here and a strong feeling there was favoritism. THAT is the problem. Players now have the feeling even they work hard on plots, bring intrigue and adventure, another faction can just get a bit of DM help to steal all the reward of the hard work. I mean, why bother pushing plots and crawling dungeons, solving riddles, involve other players and what not if at the end of all of it, someone can just swoop in and take everything away? This is the current feeling I'm getting.
Now we can only hope this will not discourage those who feel cheated and they wont quit. I know this can all be handled ICly now and trust, me it will create a lot of conflict but this has created another problem. Those that feel cheated will have a problem not retaliating out of OOC anger instead of all of it being IC.
This is how I see it so far. I dont have all the facts but right now, this is how it looks and looks is what is causing a lot of problems.
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If they had been ported at the entrance of the tomb and walked it like everyone else and come up on the group while they were deciding what to do to open the door, it would have worked out fine.
We were ported to the entrance of the tomb and arrived before the door was opened.
fighting the spawn and figuring out the riddle.
The spawn was behind the door which was opened and i was actually the first through the door as Q(sorry dont know full name) cast the spell from a distance.
laying traps excessively.
i cant comment on this, but know that it caused the death of one of the MG rather than any of the CoG.
was it necessary to ninja loot everything?
No it wasnt in hindsight, but at the time in the middle of an adrenaline rush i grabbed all that i could not knowing what the items were. Q actually stood at my side as i took the last item. Count emoted that the chest opened and closed for the CoG to see, even so far as adding 'just' on the end of the emote incase they didnt see the graphics.
Also, from what I hear, the plot item was brought straight to the mage guild, put in storage and the player loged.
Yes i went straight to the MG and logged. I walked past two people beating Akmin down, past Harr fighting a bullette and past Gio standing guard towrads the forest passage. Once i returned to the MG i informed count that i needed to log and had 'officially' past the treasure to Maleen. i then sent a tell to pendragon informing him that Maleen had the treasure should it be needed for prisoner exchange or whatever. It was approaching midnight and i had a migraine coming on so was no going to stay online longer.
Players now have the feeling even they work hard on plots, bring intrigue and adventure, another faction can just get a bit of DM help to steal all the reward of the hard work.
I can understand what you are saying here and all i can say is what i posted originally in this thread, that i am sorry that i took all the loot from the chest but it wasnt a premeditated action.
In my defence with regard to identifying the plot etc, i initially started working on this plot over a month ago. Involving other PCs and spreading the knowledge so that all were actually ready to participate in the plot.
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left deadly traps behind to trap in the opposition.
Any traps that were left were not left 'behind', they were left 'ahead'. We had to run past those (I think there were three, and they may have been deadly, I have no idea) traps no less than Quatharc and Ruckus. More often, even, because I made several circles around the area while Quatharc and Ruckus were figuring out what was happening.
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If they had been ported at the entrance of the tomb and walked it like everyone else and come up on the group while they were deciding what to do to open the door, it would have worked out fine.
That's what happened.
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There were similar feelings over the end of the Civil War plot. Everyone had worked very hard on their end, but ultimately it was decided that the Pheonix Legion players had done more and thus won the conflict.
I have no doubt both sides in this conflict went through the work involving other players and what not. Sadly, one side has to win the conflict.
Trust was mentioned, and I think it's important to trust in the DM team to do the right thing. It's also equally important for the DM team to behave in a way that does not violate that trust.
Hopefully things get worked out. Ultimately this is just a game. Lets try to foster more understanding and keep in good standing what has been the most important aspect of CoA. The community
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People here are so attached to their characters/levels/loot/WIN that they forget they're suppose to be helping to write a fun and interesting story that'll leave us all kinds of awesome memories in the years to come.
But no. Winning plots is more important, because that's what people will remember. That you won. 'Cause there's someone keeping track.
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Also, from what I hear, the plot item was brought straight to the mage guild, put in storage and the player loged.
The conflict certainly was alive after cadiz had to log. Yes, we knew where the treasure now was, and the Legion held two of our PCs hostage to try and get it "back". It was sorted out ICly after this point. Evander wasn't keen on handing over the artifacts when he learned that the Guild likely had them and the Legion would not have overstepped any bounds OOCly by executing the two right there, or taking them to Crag for punishment. The decision to take them to Arabel for trial was an IC one made by the Legion, as was the decision not to hand over the treasure to the Legion an IC one made by the Guild.
Cadiz logged and we picked up from where he left off. The treasure was no less accessible after he logged than it was before, and the follow-up that was attempted was not hindered in any way because of that.
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The quest was billed as DMless and would have worked fine had a DM not interceded. One did. Instead of saying it will not happen again, apparently it is more important to justify the act. The conflict was already there and building. Had nobody been ported there would have been no issue from any no matter who "won" as some coin it. As for ninja looting it is what it is. Oh well.
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I'll make it clear because I thought it was obvious but apparently it is not. The fact a plot is DMless means it can be pursued even if a DM is not logged. It does not mean I cannot move the threads to make it more interesting.
Also many are focusing on the help that a team received, forgetting the other received some as well.
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If you want the treasure so bad, go storm the mage guild tower, slaughter them like animals and take what is rightfully yours. These posts never end up well, just handle it IC.
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Those last few posts were clarifying incomplete information to avoid people getting angry and frustrated without knowing everything that happened.
As far as my understanding of "DMless quests" goes, it is just a quest that does not require a DM for you to pursue to completion. There have been a few such treasure hunts in the past.