Ninga looting in the elven text thing
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Know what they are thank you. Do not wish the treasure. Am in neither faction. It was still in my opinion wrong. If you do not share that view you do not share it. It does not change my thoughts nor opinion they should not have been ported in to ninja loot the event.
I received tells, texts, calls, etc. thought about it and posted.
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@The:
Also many are focusing on the help that a team received, forgetting the other received some as well.
As I sit here borrowing BN's computer, I have to agree with this statement. If you look at it from an objective point of view, Quatharc (don't worry, Cadiz, I call him "Q" too :P ) was given more scrolls of the spell in question, allowing him to effectively open the door and get a chance at the hoard he so desperately wanted.
That being said, as a third party member that had been thrown into an incredibly awkward situation right after this incident, I can see from an outsider's perspective of how it was a good idea in theory but not executed quite as well as it could have been. I won't bother with delineating it here, but I'll be happy to talk to anyone who feels grieved over this.
Consequently, being the Legion's "lawyer" in the trial was something I had to deal with ICly as being the highest ranking Legion member online at the time. I was getting anxious and was on the edge of my seat the whole time because, I admit, I don't get into very many extreme PvP situations (both combat and non-combat PvP). It was awkward, weird, and a little disheartening, but I like the way it turned out. Yes, I said it.
I am not upset about the situation. I am not upset about who got "teh lewt" or "teh win." The only thing I'm vaguely upset about is that this incident is being taken far more seriously than it should. There will be more plots in the future, and there will be more ways "to win," if that's what it really boils down to.
And, really, the thing that saddens me the most will be missing the people who have decided to leave, either definitely or indefinitely.
On a much lighter sidenote,
@cadiz_stoker:
I walked past two people beating Akmin down, past Harr fighting a bullette and past Gio standing guard towrads the forest passage.
Lol, I totally saw my screen jitter and thought I should drink a see invis. At least I know I can solo those bitches now. ;D
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As someone who was not there, I have very little to say about the matter.
I have only been playing for a year now and the thing that is most dear to me about CoA are the friendships I have forged and the conversations I have had with people I would never have met otherwise. So, I hardly care who won or lost, or if things were done in the proper decorum. My deepest regret is that there are people who feel that their time is not well spent with COA, and I will miss those who decide to leave because they are angry with the situation.
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On consideration i think i want to say something else.
The 'win' in this instance is not really gaining the 'plot item', but in showing the DM team that you are engaged and so on. The supposed benefit to your faction is likely due not to the amount of items, but to the amount of involvement and effort the faction placed in it.
There has only ever been one of these 'races' that has been overwhelmingly won and that was the Goldfigger riddles one, due to a huge effort by one faction whilst everyone else largely ignored it.
So what i imagine is that those factions that took part will see some benefit to their station and a creation of tensions and interactions along the way.
And so again i have to say that in hindsight i should not have taken all the loot in the chest, but having done so all i can do is now appologise for antagonising other players. As i started this thread by saying.
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All in all, it doesnt matter who won the treasure or pvp, its how it was handled.
Thank you Cadiz for the other side's point of view. I hate these kind of situations because everyone gets emotional, myself included. Perhaps we invest ourselves to much in this game but we love it and that's what makes it great. Its just upseting when the situation looks like another group was favored, which I understand was not. Conflict wanted to be created in this situation but it ended up messed up. Go at it differently next time?
I hope this will be handled ICly and hopefully there will be no OOC anger behind IC actions. I hope everyone can learn from this so it never happens again.
For those who fell wronged, please, dont get upset over it to the point of quitting. Take a break to get your mind off it and come back focused on having fun but ready to lose some battles at times. Its just a game, lets not make it more then that. I'd hate to see friends go over this. People make mistakes, noone is perfect, situation can turn disastrous due to emoting and points of views and how situations turn out looking even though it was not the original intension.
There may have been a bit of miscommunication here too so it didnt help the situation.
Please! Lets not have any of these happen again… oki? Its depressing to lose good players over this...
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When I read threads like this, I feel like CoA could benefit from new policies to distinguish conflict from competetiveness.
Conflict happens between characters. Conflict between characters tells stories. The purpose of CoA is to tell stories. If, as a player, your purpose is to tell stories, everyone always wins conflicts between characters. If your character succeeds, everyone wins because you told a story. If your character fails, everyone wins because you told a story.
If, as a player, your purpose is to tell stories, you can also be gracious when you succeed. You let your character take the reward, but you let your character's foe live to take revenge. You can also be gracious when you fail. You let your character's foe take the reward, but you let your character vow to take revenge. Either way, stories are told. Either way, everyone wins.
Competitiveness, however, happens between players. Competitiveness between players does not tell stories. Competitiveness between players is about you, as a player, wanting to achieve your goals. The goals you want to achieve are not your character's goals. They are your goals.
If, as a player, your purpose is to achieve your goals, you cannot be gracious when you succeed. To win, you cannot let your foe live to take revenge. You cannot be gracious when you fail. To win, you cannot let your foe take the reward. When players compete, only one player can win.
I also feel like CoA could benefit from new policies about what DMs will reward and what DMs will not reward.
Creating goals for a character should not be enough for a player to be rewarded. Pursuing goals for a character should not be enough for a player to be rewarded. Achieving goals for a character should not be enough for a player to be rewarded. To be rewarded, a player should not only create, pursue, and achieve goals. They should create, pursue, and achieve goals in a way in which everyone wins.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Eddie Sedative, that is not only brilliant but oh so true. Thank you for sharing.
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Those are some mighty fine two cents you have there.
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I understand that both groups received help. Cog/Legion received a scroll to help open the riddle door but no less then 5 minutes away there was a party member returning to the Tomb with the same scrolls. The Mg group would have had to navigate back through the ruins, travelled to the Hullack then navigate the Hullack maze/baddy spawns then search for the hidden door. It would not have even been feasible for them to get there on time if even at all. Ninja looting sucks but that's not even the point. Its all the principle of how things happened. Not about the loot.
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I'll not get involved in the debate as it's not something I can really comment on.
The one thing that struck me is the supposed to be DMless thing.
DM's have the discretion to jump on a players group any time they please.
I can't imagine someone doing a scripted quest and after a DM spices it up that anyone would complain that it was supposed to be DMless, but maybe I'm missing a point with this particular incident.And anyone can make a mistake if a mistake was indeed ever made. The best thing to do is roll with the punches and carry it in on ic and ig.
Hope you can get it all worked out. :-)
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Coordinating two entire groups of PCs that are related to one event isn't easy.
TBH you should be glad that the DM attempted to pull it off.
Plots are plots, just because you can pursue it without one, doesn't mean you get a DM-piss-off-imma-winning card during stuff like this.
Although, its probably a good idea to let people know that the DMing had help on both sides after. You probably don't have to get into the cesspool of discussing favoritism then, or at least with sane players.
The only real problem would be if there's any other relevant factions missing out on action elsewhere, not the said people who actually got involved in all of this!
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Bad bad: Ninja-looting
call yourself super DM for uniting/ bringing two factions to a clash but if players react in a certain way that goes against super friendliness I say.. IT IS LAEM
result: dire discussion of being cheated, focus on plot/time invested.Imma gonna be friends with dm with Teleport POwers with mah sneak ROGUE
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Oh Yeah I R DM I always Noe Moar THan U! I am tired of that excuse SO yeah best say we are all human do mistakes..
PLZ kthx bai
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Wizard's Second Rule
The greatest harm can result from the best intentions.
Wizard's Third Rule
Passion rules reason, For better or for worse.
Letting your emotions control your reason may cause trouble for yourself and those around you.
'Nuff said.
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Bad bad: Ninja-looting
How many times do i need to apologize?
If there had been a way for me to fight it out then i might well have tried, but being supported by 2 mid-level chars and none of us with any combat ability what should we have done?
Stood there and let ourselves be beaten down, possibly FD if the opposing team were not 'ooc friendly'?
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I admit I am relatively new / returning to this server and was not directly involved in the event, but I have talked extensively to some of those involved and believe a point is being overlooked. People log into the server to have fun. People often measure fun by succeeding at a challenge, its part of human nature. Granted with a worthwhile challenge comes the possibility of failure, which is rarely fun (how many trips to the fugue have you really enjoyed?). Still, as long as everything in within the understood rules, people can usually handle the failure and indeed past failures make it even more fun when they finally accomplish a goal. When their is a perceived breaking of those rules, it causes a great deal of frustration. Especially given the time we invest in these characters.
Please keep the above in mind when reading the below. We had a series of treasures we were told to find IG by the various faction PCs. It was ruled a DMless event and, in the Legion at least, the faction NPCs had no further information when asked. Moving forward to the exact event, you have group Legion/CoG finding the tomb, defeating the creatures in the tomb, and working on the puzzle (to the extent they might or might have been able to determine it is still outstanding given the following events). TheKn group Mage Guild is transported to the area outside the tomb by a DM. Group Mage Guild is then able to move past group Legion/CoG and secure the treasure via invisibility spells (against I wasn't there but that is what I understand).
From talking to the various players in question who where there and are honestly upset enough over the matter to stop playing for a time, you have the following perspective. A DMless even that appeared to be billed as find it on your own merits / defeat the NPC guardians on your own merits. During their attempt to do just that, another group was given a DM port to the area -after- group Legion/CoG had found the place and killed the guardians. Some of the second group then used invisibility spells to get the end treasure and run away. From the Legion/CoG perspective the players actions are no different than someone waiting until another group killed off the guardians of the Haunted Halls, then using invisibility to get the regents / treasures in the chests and run away. The question of the parties abilities doesn't really come into it, as the challenge was suppose to be the same for everyone. I understand the Mage Guild players apologized for the action afterwards and amy not trying to attack them over this, but here are some ideas. Instead of charing in for the win next time when you just had DM assistance, what about trying to negotiate ICly. For instance .. "you can't get that door open, ok we will open the door for you but in return we get half of what's inside". From the Legion/CoG perspective the fun was removed by actions that appeared to break the rules of the quest / server. If the Mage Guild had come upon them without the port and still managed to get the treasure, I am sure people would be far less upset. The invisibility tactic might have stilled caused some annoyance, but I think that was greatly exasperated because the DM port allowed it to be utilized.
From the DM perspective I can certainly understand wanting to set up conflict. But I would ask the DMs to remember that players don't have the entire big picture. They only see their piece of it and their fun is based off of what they see. When they see something that appears to break the understood rules, especially when they appear to lose out on the reward because of the breaking of those rules it becomes very frustrating. As a player you mind turns to questioning when the next breaking of the agreed upon server rules may occur. In other words, should I put effort into playing a great character with deep plots if those plots may be ended at any time with an action that seems to break the understood server rules. That is the true reason for the frustration form the event in my opinion. That Legion/CoG team failed at the given event due to an action that appeared to be favoritism to the Mage Guild (frustration / lack of fun), and the worry that the favoritism may occur again in such a manner that it ends the deep plots being worked by the Legion/CoG players (very frustrating / lack of fun). I am not saying this is the case at all, because frankly players don't see the big picture. I am just saying this is how it appears to the players involved. This event, combined with a few other bad experiences, have made them no longer enjoy playing and believe that regardless of their actions their plots will be made to fail / suffer. To be clear, not saying this is the true intention of the DMs and given the posts in this thread I doubt it is, saying that it is how it -appeared- to the players.
It's not fair to note short comings (perceived or real) without offering ideas to help fix the situation (the old try it from THIS side proverb). Given the above frustrations on the players side (remember everyone we have had several very good players decide to take a break over this, that does no one any good), and my inability to know the DM side (never been a DM :) ) I suggest the following. Clearer rules / communication on what may happen on a DM event, if everyone understands the ground work going in then there is far less room for frustrations. The DM team has worked very hard to set up a server that is fun and where players can make a difference, as a result let player vrs player conflict and the resulting consequences occur naturally as long as it is IC. Anyone else with some good ideas how we can help to resolve this going forward and keep the awesome going?
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Theres always the option to leave bits and pieces of lewtz behind since you were in a rush. You've been here in this server for a while and so have I and I can trust on people's criteria to take things oocly friendly as to prolong the story as much as possibly.
I am no-one to tell how people should play their chars. I always try to be oocly friendly :). Its a server we want people to have fun . So BIG win = sour loss / feeling of being cheated/ people Get Angry.. Mild Win/bare win = Not so sour loss = win /win?
I appreciate and applaud your apology .
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It seems a pretty minor thing to be this upset about. Was anyone permakilled or executed due to metagaming? No? Then chill. I dont recall any server rules about how just because you do something you get rewarded. Go do a hedge magic ritual to look into the past and see who robbed you and then go kill them.
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Could we possibly see a spot check for invisibilty in the near future?
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1. These people knew we were there anyway.
2. By the books, Invisibility gives you a +40 on your Hide check. So, yeah. Why not.