High Level Quests and Doing It Hard Core
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I think one of the things that a lot of higher level players want is access to quantities of consumables, that they can use for intrigue and adventure. Many, but by no means all, have already got significant items of DM loot. I suggest Wands with 10-15 charges and stacks of potions would be highly desirable. Perhaps this can be done with specific points of interest like alters that might charge a blank wand with a random spell appropriate to the deity and "Pools of escence" that allow you to fill up a random number of empty bottles with random elixirs. Odd bushes that hold a few berries of rare power that can be spawned in a quest area. To be honest, it would be rather fun to fill your bottle at such a pool, wondering what you might find, hoping for something unusual. Is it a potion of Stoneskin or an elixir of Light Healing. Perhaps on rare occasions, you might get the odd potion of Tenser's Transformation or other such rare circle 7, 8 or 9 spells that we just don't see on this server due to the inherent level limits. Perhaps each pool allows each player to fill three bottles and a quest area might have one, or two or even three of these on a long quest.
If all these things are inside quest areas and are refreshed at the start of a quest, they cannot be easily farmed without gathering a party and negociating the dangers involved. There would be none of the mad rush having cast invisibility to known resource locations in out of the way places after a reset.
The advantage of offering consumables rather than gold is that you turn gathering of resources into an adventure rather than a method of spending gold and grinding out potions in a laboratory. With a random component, you also encourage people to return to quests, to get that potion of Uberness.
Double that :D
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yes but due to our low magic we dont have a preponderance of use per day or perm items
actually we really dont have " magic items" unless in a faction, we simply have enhanced items and most of those are for certain foes only
true magic items are good versus any foe
My point exactly. The mob CRs used to calculate the XP gain assumes the PCs of higher levels have magic items we don't have. I don't know whether CoA has custom CRs or not.
I suspect many of our higher levels are hitting that ceiling.
However, my post did not propose solutions, because there likelt are other factors I have no clue about. The only suggestion I have relates to my own situation, and it is to make some of the high-level quests less demanding in time. -
@Cunning:
Our playerbase is simply not as good at questing and mechanics as it was three years ago. I have difficulty getting groups together for mid range and low level quests that are percieved as difficult, too.
As an example, take the Mirror Quest Moloch was running last year. He was spawning an exact duplicicate of a players character and pwning them dead in an arena environment. This demonstrated that players simply do not know how to play their characters to the best of their abilities any more.
This means that what looks to be a reasonable level of difficulty in the DMs eyes (who remember how to play the game) is actually a death trap of the highest order to someone who doesn't have much of a clue.
Perhaps bring back a faction similar to the adventures guild where players can be trained in survival tactics?
Oh I agree with Cunning Stunt on this one. There is alot of players out there who just don't know the correct way to deal with danger. I seen some bad cases of poor comunication, wandering adveturers and poor use of resource lately, half tempted to start something up IC to be honest.
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I remember beta-testing the new Pilgrims and it was fine then, at least considering the level range.
But I will say this, if all quests rewarded more consumables, that'd be awesome. Gold is boring. (But also important.)
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In high level quests i found to successes you needed a very specific group to do the quest successful
Usually one good scout.
2-4 Tanks
1 Really good healer
2 buffersI suggest this:
1 Caster
2 Frontliners -
In high level quests i found to successes you needed a very specific group to do the quest successful
Usually one good scout.
2-4 Tanks
1 Really good healer
2 buffersI suggest this:
1 Caster
2 FrontlinersYou're all wrong.
What you need is 2 powerbuilt battlepriests, one max-int sun elf mage, 1-2 dwarf pure tank, one halfling rogue.Or you could just use some consumables and intelligence when going into places.
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I have read the whole thread and I have a question. I do not really have an answer, but I thought it worth thinking about.
Is the server designed for high level quests be more dangerous than low level quests?
I don't mean should high level quests be more difficult, of course they should be, a level 10 adventurer is unlikely to go clean rats out of a basement. I mean, if there is a 75% sucess chance for a level 3 adventurer on a level 3 quest, should a level 10 character on a level 10 quest face a greater risk of failure? I guess I am asking, are higher level quests intended to be "more difficult" for the same characters? I don't know the answer, but I think it is worth asking.
Unrelated to my question.
From my experience, almost every quest on the server can be done with "relative" ease if you have two things:
1. A reliable group of front liners.
2. Some way to heal them, be it wands, potions, or a caster.Trap and lock springers are optional. Buffing optional. Evocation spells optional. Summoning optional. I've done most of the high level quests on the server with "frontliner only" parties with a few archers who tagged along without issue.
To answer Moloch's original question as to why people are not doing high tier quests? Well, I have a fairly high level character and scripted questing just does not interest me all that much anymore. I've done all the scripted quests. I find plotting and advancement of the servers stories much more interesting than going into the mountain fortress to kill the same cultists over and over again for a marginal increase in XP with a big risk of being deleveled.
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Richard explained why I don't often join high-level scripted quests, or scripted quests in general. I don't play a warrior or a buffer. I play a rogue. I don't have anything to contribute to scripted quests because scouting causes buffs to expire and the warrior can absorb the majority of damage caused by traps anyway. At least, that's what I get told more often than not.
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i find in high level quests the warrior not waiting time just runs through traps over wasting buff times and letting a scout… SCOUT
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I don't want people to think I am not saying non frontliners are not useful on high level quests, they can be. I am always happy to take along anyone who wants to come onto a quest. I am just saying that from my experience as a frontliner, the way I've succeeded on most quests is for frontliners to move forward and kill things, till they run out of things to kill, punctuated by healing. Everything else contributed is nice, but not necessary. A number of the servers high level frontliners have search as a class skill, or crossclassed the skill so they can see traps but it is always easy to find a rogue, the server has tons of them. I've almost never been unable to do a quest due to lack of trap finding ability, but I have been unable to due to lack of front liners or healing ability.
The thing I like most about the server is plotting and advancing the "plot lines." Leveling up is nice but it loses it's appeal eventually. You do not have to be a high level to be engaged in politics, one of the most important PCs on the server is a level 3 cleric(unless he died again), however when you have a target on your back, being a higher level helps keep you alive.
Why would I want to go fight front giants for the 10th time for a small amount of XP, a decent chance of two lucky crits killing me and thus increasing the risk I get sneak-attack assassinated by a crafty kobold? Instead of going to go hunt those giants, i'd rather grab some adventurers and go explore the under dark or something. The small amount of XP I will get for doing a high level quest is not worth the risk of party wiping, losing all of my xp and my loot.
This does not hold true for all quests. Some high level quests are much easier than others but even then, why bother? Getting another level won't help me plot so I am not that interested. The real reason I quest is for gold, which does help plot.
I have to say i've seen an increase in the willingness of players to go explore in things unrelated to quests in the last few months and I think that is really great. It used to be pretty tough to get players involved in something unrelated to a scripted quest before. I am not sure why this is the case, but I see a noted increase in the willingness of players to explore. My theory is that the DMs have been hoping on these expeditions more for all factions, so players are more willing to go.
I do not see not doing high level quests as a problem, the server is still fun and there is plenty to do at high levels which do not involve questing. If the DMs want to make high level quests more attractive, I think increasing the XP rewards would be the best thing to do. An extra 150 or 200 XP would make the difference between a marginal XP reward from a quest and a worth while one. I think the gold rewards for most of the high level quests are very well balanced for the cost of completing them, unless things go screwy I almost always at least break even.
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I have another theory on why high level quests are not done as much. This is only a theory, I do not know. It seems like some people do the quests in regular "groups". I do not mean there is a clique or anything like that, it is only natural that people adventure with trusted allies. However, this may make it difficult for higher level characters who are not "aligned" with any group to find out about the quests to begin with.
I don't think there is anything DMs can do about this, people either chose to announce quests via sendings so anyone can come, or not.
Edit: Specific quest issues:
Poison caravan. The spawns of the enemy caravan seems to be based on party size. The larger the party, the greater the danger. If you bring along a large party you will often party wipe unless your group has a number of reliable front liners.
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I keep hearing that you make more gold on the low level quests than the high levels. That's not in the least way right.
For me this is quite true though. I wonder if you mean not right as in "not as the DMs meant it? " or "you are doing something wrong if this is the case" or even "this isn't the case at all"?. I certainly find that until level 7 or so there's quests I can do without spending more than 100 gold on consumables, if that much… Yesterday went through Dead cold up north and burnt through a healing wand and had to use some not-readily-replacable item charges for a little bit of XP, and a net loss in gold. I could probably break even on the quest if the frontliners had been a bit more careful, but I doubt that is possible without Metagaming, and then the quest would have taken even longer, meaning more use of 'emergency power' that cost more than a rest to replenish.
From what Zyla said, it takes about six days to regain a lost level at the high levels if you do ever quest every day. That sounds about right honestly.
And if you can only do a few quests per week it takes forever.. This is not easy to solve as there's always going to be people with more and less time on their hands, but as players age, I suppose there will be more people with less time… Even given the time I doubt I could bear doing the same quest 6 days in a row... even Shira's dog's quest..
P. -
We tend to think that players should have a fair chance of completing any quest. Higher levels may have the feel of being 'harder' but just because now the half-orc that could crit you for 20 at level 2 is critting you for 100 at level 10. The effect is the same, a crit killed you.
However, I'd want players to find success on 95% of the quests they do. Failure should be a possibility, but not a statistical norm at any level. We play to have fun, there should be challenge, but nothing is meant to be supremely harder, unless the quest is actually advertised as being HARD and that can apply typically to the optional parts on normal quests.
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I keep hearing that you make more gold on the low level quests than the high levels. That's not in the least way right.
For me this is quite true though. I wonder if you mean not right as in "not as the DMs meant it? " or "you are doing something wrong if this is the case" or even "this isn't the case at all"?.
I mean not in the least right because DMs don't intend that–I believe it happens. I hear it so often. For a long time, DMs ran a rule of thumb that gold was somehow going to destroy some illusionary player economy that never really existed. So low level quests gave 100-200 gold, mid level 150-300, high 200-400 gold. That's just not realistic if you want high level characters able to do high level challenges.
From what Zyla said, it takes about six days to regain a lost level at the high levels if you do ever quest every day. That sounds about right honestly.
And if you can only do a few quests per week it takes forever.. This is not easy to solve as there's always going to be people with more and less time on their hands, but as players age, I suppose there will be more people with less time… Even given the time I doubt I could bear doing the same quest 6 days in a row... even Shira's dog's quest..
P.If you can only do a few quests a week, say two to three, then you're still regaining that lost level in two weeks. If you only do one quest a week, then a month or so. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I want to add more high level quests for players, but am not really motivated to do it if no one wants to do high level quests. Hence this discussion.
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I keep hearing that you make more gold on the low level quests than the high levels. That's not in the least way right.
For me this is quite true though. I wonder if you mean not right as in "not as the DMs meant it? " or "you are doing something wrong if this is the case" or even "this isn't the case at all"?. I certainly find that until level 7 or so there's quests I can do without spending more than 100 gold on consumables, if that much… Yesterday went through Dead cold up north and burnt through a healing wand and had to use some not-readily-replacable item charges for a little bit of XP, and a net loss in gold. I could probably break even on the quest if the frontliners had been a bit more careful, but I doubt that is possible without Metagaming, and then the quest would have taken even longer, meaning more use of 'emergency power' that cost more than a rest to replenish.
If that was the same run of Dead Cold up North I was part of, we were a shambles in orgnisation and some of the loot was -sweet-
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[holds his hand up]
i was the weakest link in the tactical side.
[charges into the fray naked and badly injured]
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back on topic the loot in that quest was amazing stuff, less than an item each or even 1 between two. But the quality of it was exceptional.
I want to go back again and redo it but take a more thoughtful char so i can spend meore time enjoying the quest rather than concentrating solely on fighting
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@Eddie:
Richard explained why I don't often join high-level scripted quests, or scripted quests in general. I don't play a warrior or a buffer. I play a rogue. I don't have anything to contribute to scripted quests because scouting causes buffs to expire and the warrior can absorb the majority of damage caused by traps anyway. At least, that's what I get told more often than not.
This so often frustrates me. I like playing a rogue and scout and for the frontliner players to distain my character's skills often for an OOC reason just pisses me off. No warrior in his right mind would crash on into traps regardless unless he had a very low INT or WIS score. No character enjoys pain when someone can disable a trap safely. Yes,, scouting does let buffs wane, but more than half the time, the buffs were applied far too early and when either faced with nothing or faced with a few early and lightweight spawns.
A good, well run, tactical party will use the rogue, the wizard, the healer, the bard, the flanker and the frontliners all to good effect, allowing players to play their strengths so that everyone has fun, rather than just a few frontliners.
Having said that, an IC'ly badly organised party, that makes mistakes IC can be just as fun in failure as a well organised party is in success.
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Last month, I did all the high lvl quest with Zan except for Pilgrims. The reason why only few people do high lvl quest is
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Need to get a proper group of players to do these quests. The reason being that if you do not get a proper group, you will be spending lot more on the quest than what you get as reward with a high chance of getting killed
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Fear of Dying once you reach a certain lvl prevents people from doing these high lvl quest
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Many players think that after a certain lvl, they are better chasing plots than doing scripted, some are so biased that they wont do any quest after certain level
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Getting pure class high lvl char is harder, like a rogue who can take care of those nasty traps or high level priest who can ward you against death spells.
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Some quest are insanely tough like the boss fight in scrambled egg and some quest just suck those wands leaving a deep hole in your pocket
If DM's do encourage players to do these scripted quests, I would request adding more interesting magical items in certain older high lvl quests. I tried them but they dont spawn any good ones compared to the newer quests
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It always bothers me how my character is supposed to know it 'needs' a specialized spell like 'death-ward' memorized on a certain day.
I basically always have the same 'generally useful' set of spells memorized by my character. I might change one or two spells if I am about to rest her anyway and a sending goes out for something that from the description I can ICly infer that spell X would probably be useful and Y less likely, but that's about it. I make utility wands for spells like lesser restoration, remove fear, and after a quest I'll memorize restorations/remove-curse etc. to 'fix' people with a little ritual, but something specialized like 'death-ward' or 'freedom-of-movement' just never gets used as I don't have potion recipies for them, a wand is too expensive to pay (gold + crafting attempts eating up time and income) up-front for the little use it will see (didn't do the math, but it might well be cheaper to just resurrect people now and then), and clerical scrolls are broken for a lot of specialized utility spells (and I currently don't even have the feat).
So, I really hope the potion-brewing gets finished soon, so people will be able to build a library of utility potions.
P.
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If you can only do a few quests a week, say two to three, then you're still regaining that lost level in two weeks. If you only do one quest a week, then a month or so. That seems pretty reasonable to me. I want to add more high level quests for players, but am not really motivated to do it if no one wants to do high level quests. Hence this discussion.
Most deaths i've seen on the high level quests don't come from poor planning or bad team work, but from a character being hit with 2-4 crits in rapid succession by high damage enemies. The odds of this happening on any particular quest are low, but since you need to do a bunch of quests to level from 8 to 9 or 9 to 10 the "crit death" hurts more than when you are being hit for a 20 damage crit at level 2 by a half orc.
Ways to change this?
Give a modest increase to high level quest XP, 100 to 150 or so a quest would make them more worth while.
Reduce the base damage of the high damage enemies so their crits hurt less, while increasing their AB to compensate for overall damage. I suspect this is a pain so you would not want to have to re-tweak monsters.
Make new quests with larger numbers of lower damage enemies to compensate, though this may cause lag.
Reduce the movement speed of the highest damage enemies so players can run away easier.
Increase the area around high damage enemies and take them out of boxed in areas so players can run away easier.