Intrigue and Adventure VS CoA Sims
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@H:
Obviously an exaggeration, but even if I dumped a whole lot of really well thought storyline into it…Would you consider throwing something this big for the sole purpose of me and 8 others getting awsome loot and awsome xp?
8? Try 1. Depends what your login is.
Going back a bit, but i was busy all day…
Why should people expect "awesome loot and awesome xp" COnsider it a bonus that might occasionnally occur, and doesnt occur every DM event.
I think the expectation that DMs will give loot and large amounts of XP basiclly sucks. I've sometimes been freaking shocked to get tells from other players after a DM event that basiclly said "is that all we're getting?"
Consider the FUN as your major reward. it's called "Spice" because it's spicey, fun, exciting.
Now, for long-term things where people may have put a lot of work intoit, thats different. But i think |some| people need a reality check when it comes to every simgle interaction -
Why should people expect "awesome loot and awesome xp".
That actually works both ways, DMs shouldn't expect people are only interested if they get 'phat l00t'; I'm sure there also plenty of players that DON'T want/expect anything big from an interaction with a DM. The experience (and I do not mean XP) of something more or less unique (instead of a scripted quest where 'your' answers to an NPC never seem to be in the script), would be enough reward.
P.
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A big, daring adventure warrants a big XP and/or GP reward if you (barely) survive it, more so if you, say, defeat the Uberdragon of Foozleville who was trying to eat Arabel all along. Please don't tell me "adventure is its own reward" - 'tis D&D and while, o/c, the biggest reward is influencing the server, the second-most important thing in D&D are loot, gold and XP. (And boy, you gonna need it to restock and recover from all that dragon fire, dayum.)
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Amen brotha'
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"The experience is it's own reward" applies to the PLAYER, not the character, and frankly, since everything "in the City of Arabel" is in fact imaginary, it can not but be so.
From the point of view of the CHARACTER, however, danger has to be rewarded or going into danger is patently irrational and insane. Such rewards need to be there, or else it makes playing believable adventurers rather difficult. [The rewards need not, of course, be in gold or magic, they may be other forms of power/desire-statifaction, but they need to be real rewards from the point of view of the character, not just the player.]
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A big, daring adventure warrants a big XP and/or GP reward if you (barely) survive it, more so if you, say, defeat the Uberdragon of Foozleville who was trying to eat Arabel all along. Please don't tell me "adventure is its own reward" - 'tis D&D and while, o/c, the biggest reward is influencing the server, the second-most important thing in D&D are loot, gold and XP. (And boy, you gonna need it to restock and recover from all that dragon fire, dayum.)
Some of us dont really play this because it is DnD, but rather because it
is an environment which supports roleplaying. Adventuring is great, even
if you dont get "uber phat l00t" for it. When you say "Please dont tell me
"adventure is its own reward"" you forget to take into consideration that
some people actually do believe this, how weird or alien it might sound.
Why would you even care if someone who is not you are not constantly
rewarded with material possesions?Personally (and this is personally, as I think alot of things are) I think the
biggest reward is a great story, for all or for yourself. And the second-most
important thing being being able to influence the server. I would gladly stay
at an event for many many many hours to get a great story and perhaps
to influence the module. Loot is just a small bonus. I would not, however,
go to events only to obtain loot. Then I might as well grind, which I utterly
despise doing with every ounce of my mortal body and immortal soul.I do not wish to attack anyone with this post, so please dont see it as such.
Let us have an orderly and calm discussion regarding this.- Edin Sumar
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Loot is awesome.
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No.
I do not think that CoA is turning into "CoA Sims"
Maybe… more like.. that game on Adult Swim called:
"Five Minutes to Kill...yourself"^_^
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Honestly, I tried out some of Moloch's suggestions. Took a group on a giant hunt. Don't know if any DMs noticed, and it doesn't matter. We didn't even find any giants. But still, it was more fun than sitting around the market. I had more fun with that than I had with most scripted quests (Though this could be because we hit what I can only assume to be strong spawns, including a pack of winter wolves, and a couple goblin chieftains plus entourage.) I hope everyone else involved had fun with it, too, as that was the point. Though, I think a few of you may have thought we were heading to a scripted quest.
I'm going to be doing that more often, whether it gets noticed or not. It's just more damned fun than making bricks, or trying to organize volunteers to shift rubble.
Still, though, the problem is getting people to go. I think we got lucky with the way the sending was worded, which is why anyone even showed up. I expected (from past experiences) to have all of 3 people go out and hunt giants (that didn't actually exist,) but instead we had 8 of us. I was pleasantly surprised, but I highly doubt that'll happen a second time.
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Well, we already have a few places that grant Exploration XP bonuses when you travel to them for the first time. We can scatter a few more of these around if people suggest good locations.
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Well, we already have a few places that grant Exploration XP bonuses when you travel to them for the first time. We can scatter a few more of these around if people suggest good locations.
One thing i liked alot about EfU was the explorations bonuses, for literally every new area you got bonus XP, scaling at the distance from the city or other reasons.
I thought this was a great idea (and it worked, increasing incentive to go and explore and do something new) and would suggest it whole-heartedly to the CoA crew.
And i know it's been reiterated by Moloch like 100 times in this thread, but…
@Mr.Moloch:DMs don't make bricks unless you give us the mortar of ADVENTURE and INTRIGUE.
Yea lol i think this is great…
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@O'louth:
Enjoy the lovely weather, meet -real- people, develop -real- relationships, go to Thailand and get a real sex change so you can live out that lesbian dream…
I dont play nwn, and dnd to get laid, have relationship problems, fall in love, have sex in an inn room. I do all of those when I dont play.
I do play it to blow shit up, save the damsel in distress, be Senator Palpatine for a day, eat people as a werewolf, or crawl into dungeons filled with zombies and 20 feet long snakes.
Because those things, I cannot do without this game.I want to be an adventurer and a badass, I dont want to play a 40 year old man with grey hair whos wife just got pregant for the 15th time. I can imagine I will end up in that situation eventually, and I have no intention of getting ready for it.
Exactly! The really odd thing is that so many people want to do rebuilding/volunteer activity but want to do it in a game. There are plenty of real world opportunities that will give you real satisfaction.
On the other hand, I think there is some fault with the DMs. My number one problem over the years I've played on this server (I don't do forum posts typically and even forgot my names) is that exploration=death without reward 90% of the time. All of the ideas for self-generated quests that the DMs have mentioned are great but, really, why would anyone risk losing levels when there is 0% there will be a reward. That is against the very spirit of DnD that we are trying to promote. The way to fix this would be to create some unique items and place them in interesting places that adventurers wouldn't otherwise go to. The key would be that the DM will have to hand place these items and they can't be part of any static loot…but really, it would only take a few minutes to do so, wouldn't it?
You can create legends and rumors and outright lies about the potency. location, etc of said items. And, you know what, that +1 battleaxe will have alot more meaning behind it if it is unique, has a history, looks really cool, and you had to fight a horde of trolls in some cave in the Stormhorns to get it. No DM required beyond setup.
But right now, exploration typically means I end up grinding scripted quests to get my gold/levels back that I lost for no reason.
So, before stepping off my soapbox, please throw us a bone or two. There are alot of us wanting to play DnD on Arabel. -
Well, we already have a few places that grant Exploration XP bonuses when you travel to them for the first time. We can scatter a few more of these around if people suggest good locations.
Make sure they contain the obligatory "Spawn something outrageous to kill you and cost you ten times what you gained" like the ones I've found.
That was just the best. :D
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@O'louth:
Enjoy the lovely weather, meet -real- people, develop -real- relationships, go to Thailand and get a real sex change so you can live out that lesbian dream…
I dont play nwn, and dnd to get laid, have relationship problems, fall in love, have sex in an inn room. I do all of those when I dont play.
I do play it to blow shit up, save the damsel in distress, be Senator Palpatine for a day, eat people as a werewolf, or crawl into dungeons filled with zombies and 20 feet long snakes.
Because those things, I cannot do without this game.I want to be an adventurer and a badass, I dont want to play a 40 year old man with grey hair whos wife just got pregant for the 15th time. I can imagine I will end up in that situation eventually, and I have no intention of getting ready for it.
Exactly! The really odd thing is that so many people want to do rebuilding/volunteer activity but want to do it in a game. There are plenty of real world opportunities that will give you real satisfaction.
On the other hand, I think there is some fault with the DMs. My number one problem over the years I've played on this server (I don't do forum posts typically and even forgot my names) is that exploration=death without reward 90% of the time. All of the ideas for self-generated quests that the DMs have mentioned are great but, really, why would anyone risk losing levels when there is 0% there will be a reward. That is against the very spirit of DnD that we are trying to promote. The way to fix this would be to create some unique items and place them in interesting places that adventurers wouldn't otherwise go to. The key would be that the DM will have to hand place these items and they can't be part of any static loot…but really, it would only take a few minutes to do so, wouldn't it?
You can create legends and rumors and outright lies about the potency. location, etc of said items. And, you know what, that +1 battleaxe will have alot more meaning behind it if it is unique, has a history, looks really cool, and you had to fight a horde of trolls in some cave in the Stormhorns to get it. No DM required beyond setup.
But right now, exploration typically means I end up grinding scripted quests to get my gold/levels back that I lost for no reason.
So, before stepping off my soapbox, please throw us a bone or two. There are alot of us wanting to play DnD on Arabel.This is why we are :
- Adding Exploration XP.
- Adding various rewards that you can find by exploring in the way of puzzle solving.
- Explaining that one of the things we typically gravitate towards in setting up DM quests is people wandering around looking for adventure.
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Tired of constant questing? Do number 3. Do it, whether you know you've got a DM watching you or not. Take a group out and go do something. Even if nothing happens, you're likely to have more fun than you would with a scripted quest. Do it!
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On the other hand, I think there is some fault with the DMs. My number one problem over the years I've played on this server (I don't do forum posts typically and even forgot my names) is that exploration=death without reward 90% of the time.
In my case it has actually been the opposite… i have died many more 10/1 times on scripted quests than outside the city.
If your character has a bit of intelligence or wisdom, he should know its dangerous to head out without preperations (potions of invis are great) and even with a small 4 person party, you can have alot of fun out in the wild.
And yes, im totally for people doing more of these types of excursions and vow to definately take part in them as much as i can.
Hope DMs can think of fun and creative ways to pull players into them as well. :mrgreen: -
So, just to make things clearer for myself i'm going to write out an senerio and hope that it meet the par.
Story Time
So, Let say Steally McSteal is an upcoming thief and want to make a name of himself. So he dreams up a plan to take the +2 bar stool of comfortable sitting from the bar keep of the Tired Traveler.
So, he spend several days gathering information upon the nessarary item and how he'll be able to obtain it.
But, unforuantely in the process of all of this he figures he needs a second or perhaps a third person to pull it off so he gather the nessarary force and proceed in.
The mission goes successfully, but in later days after much fuss and strife goes on about where and how this stool of comfortiness disappear. It one day appears in a random house with his special ensigna on it.
Story time Ends
So from what i've gathered from the post as a whole, something like this would be possible. If, one put in the nessaray foot work in order to get such end results.
My concerned about this is that it doesn't build up enough intrigue and interest until after the fact and thus throughout the "stake out" phases of such a task would go unnotices for it would be consider "'boring".
There isn't any killing of monsters, deadly traps, uncovering of lost and forgotten artifacts.
It's just a thief whom marked a location to hit, stakes it out, hire some goons, and then eventually hit to mark to obtain said prize.
Not to mention the amount of dm involvement just to pull off something like that.
Mainly the stake out phase of the operation along with the inital hit would scream for dm involvement but if you don't make such a thing interesting then it'll just wash away in the overflowing tide of other plots that are going on.
I mean perhaps paying a few people to go look around the building for you or ask some questions about the +2 stool of comfortable sitting. Would generate that "Oh, I wonder what going on here" from a dm.
But, I dunno
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That iceninja is probably because of the example you came up with.
Thief stuff like this is much harder to make exciting. Since if you want to 'scope' a place out, you need a DM to actually figure out any protections and guards confidently.
Then you need a DM to steal the item.
I'll be honest, I don't actually think Thief Guilds work in NWN or CoA. I've never seen one that was really viable on any of the major RP servers I've been on from Narfel to Alfa to CoA to EfU.
Because to actually steal things and pull of major heists, you need so much DM help and time unlike many of the other ideas I suggested.
The basic frame work is as another player pointed out though:
1). Figure out a goal you want to accomplish.
2). Involve other player characters, either by getting them to agree to want to join your goal, or intriguing through various means to get them to support your goal.
3). Once you've got a good group of people, start working towards your goal by doing things that don't require a DM's oversight, but do include adventure and excitement for the other players.
4). Now, if you want a little help from a DM, discuss with them what you've been doing–how it involves ADVENTURE and INTRIGUE and what players are involved working with you, and who is working against you--and if you've gotten a DM's interest, they'll probably help out.Now, if you want to do thief type things you should likely figure out what you want to steal that is owned by a player character rather than planning to steal the local bartender's favorite bar stool. Simply put, the one obviously involves another player character, and the other involves no one but yourself. NPCs are not people. They're not on the server to have fun or overcome challenges. Try not to entertain them.
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One thing that I have noticed through tells is that some players have great idea's, or want to get things done (By which will involve many players and likely be exciting, adventure or intrigue) BUT do not speak to the DM's about it, thus it never gets done.
WHY?
Most because they are scared to speak to a DM. I know, I was like this too and you would be amazed that there is nothing to be scared about. And by scared, I mean most people (That I have spoken too) do not want to waste the DM's time, or just likely think their idea's are not worth their time, and so forth. Or maby some are just plain scared to speak to them. Point is, there is nothing to be scared about!
Speak to the DM's about your idea's, and if they do not reply (likely busy) simply try again later. Else you are going to get stuck in a cycle that you do every time you log in, and this gets very boring (For both you and other players you are involved with).
I hope that made some sort of sense, writing on a computer I can barely see the screen on >_>.
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I've been a DM on a nwn2 server for a few months now and I can see where Moloch is coming from. It is sooooo much easier to make an event around a group of people -already- wandering around. I mean a LOT easier. But market sitters? I mean, you wouldn't think it be so hard but it is like trying to build a house with no trees around! You need to give the DMs ammo before telling them to shoot. If the players take the first step it makes all the difference. ALL the difference. Listening to people stand in the market talking is. . .iffy. If it is juicy gossip about the current event I'm all "oooh, ahhh" But if it is about the weather? I'm gone! And the brick building. . I honestly never had the come up for me. They should be building a brick wall to stop the unstoppable orcish horde about to waste everybody if you ask me.