How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over
-
@verk said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
If I'm out exploring I send a DM Channel Message letting any DMs on know what I'm doing.
This was the number one thing that worked for me when I was logging in a lot more often as a DM. I can't overstate how useful this is.
-
@zool said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@verk said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
If I'm out exploring I send a DM Channel Message letting any DMs on know what I'm doing.
This was the number one thing that worked for me when I was logging in a lot more often as a DM. I can't overstate how useful this is.
Number 1 best way to get a DM to pop over to your group and give XP/plot hooks.
-
A good idea to very breifly put the point of the trip too.
"In the swamps killing lizards" isn't anywhere near as useful as -
"In the swamps seeking the lizardfolks main nest to cull the population"
or
"In the swamps trying to negotiate a deal with the lizardfolks leader"
-
"I am going to the realm of ice and fire to find diamond ice and rubicite to create an abominable golem combining the two elements in order to ride into battle while cackling insanely."
-
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Just today, someone stated on discord "You cannot be a weaponmaster without knowing your mechanics". If PRCs are earned based on engine knowledge, and not on stories, we have a problem.
If you're going to present what i say in a bad light, at least use the entire quote.
[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?I don't see "Cannot be a weaponsmaster" ... do you?
I'll even answer CB's question!
They'll take on students, who they 'teach' as a 'master' to use their blade They'll host contexts, tournaments, taking people to cool spots in the module to test their skills. They'll find IC means to enchant their blades via cool stories, DMs will shower them with rewards for good roleplaying and making fun stories (often as they talk over how to better do this with the help DMs want to provide).
No where in there will they have to be some master of mechanics who understands what the extra % to saves does vs the mind affect spell from monster Y on quest Z.
Another point came up about half-fiends spawning on a quest; DID you ASK the DM running it about it or bring it up? Or let it just annoy you and linger to create bad feelings? I do not blame people for bad experiences, or even not wanting to talk about them, but I will always say--I can't HELP if you don't let me.
-
I was the DM. It was an event with over 8 PCs, including high level characters with strong characters. Balancing isn’t always easy, especially when things are spawned in beforehand for immersion sake.
Though to be fair, if you wanna go on a demon hunt, you should expect scary demons!
-
In this instance, I did Moloch. The dm who had run it had logged, and another dm who hadn't seen it all had taken over, so the response ended up being "I did not see it, but sometimes deaths happen. It sucks, but it does". I have played two characters who were not optimized mechanically back to back, and I wont state that dms never help out. I remember Spiffy trying to help my PD survive with loot a few times, and with my last character, first Bowser and later CF helped me relevel to balance some stuff out. In short, I am not saying DMs are horrible and "always ignore me", and that is not why I wrote the original post.
-
@mr-moloch said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Just today, someone stated on discord "You cannot be a weaponmaster without knowing your mechanics". If PRCs are earned based on engine knowledge, and not on stories, we have a problem.
If you're going to present what i say in a bad light, at least use the entire quote.
[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?I don't see "Cannot be a weaponsmaster" ... do you?
I'll even answer CB's question!
They'll take on students, who they 'teach' as a 'master' to use their blade They'll host contexts, tournaments, taking people to cool spots in the module to test their skills. They'll find IC means to enchant their blades via cool stories, DMs will shower them with rewards for good roleplaying and making fun stories (often as they talk over how to better do this with the help DMs want to provide).
No where in there will they have to be some master of mechanics who understands what the extra % to saves does vs the mind affect spell from monster Y on quest Z.
Another point came up about half-fiends spawning on a quest; DID you ASK the DM running it about it or bring it up? Or let it just annoy you and linger to create bad feelings? I do not blame people for bad experiences, or even not wanting to talk about them, but I will always say--I can't HELP if you don't let me.
Sorry but how do the mechanics not help storytelling in the instance you mentioned?
-
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
People are massively overlooking the BADASS part. On purpose or not, i don't know.
Give a WM level 40 and tell him to click on whatever's red, sure he'll be a "badass". That's effectively where things stand at the moment - this much sought after level of badassness is won with loot and consumables and xp, not skill. Let's not associate it with rewards like faction ranks or PrCs, you may not see it but it absolutely sets the tone for get-success-quick schemes. And worst come to worst if a DM wants to make a PC a "badass" they have a level up tool.
Despite @Khamal being on the opposite end of this I've no problem with her approach. I'm all for seeing all playstyles enjoy themselves on CoA, there should never come a point where we're saying "I can't enjoy myself because Khamal is sitting there deciding whether to steamroll Kanthea's or Ashby's next", and for that matter I've got no problem with something like the Thayan Arena because hell, people enjoy it and log in for it.
People see this small group getting alot of attention, getting the loot, exp and fun quests, and try to emulate it by optimizing their mechanical side, rather than trusting that the focus of the server is on the story, not the engine itself.
How can we help build that trust as players and DMs?
I think this is really the crux of the matter here. It certainly sounds like DMs and players upset here want the same thing.
-
I think we're trying to say CB is that a weaponmaster doesn't need to always WIN and have an indomitable reputation, he ought to have a reputation of being involved in a large number of martial events and strive toward involving others in the perfection of his craft.
A fighter/bard is mechanically stronger than a Fighter/WM, but the Fighter/WM should be acknowledged as having the 'spirit' of a true warrior, as it were.
-
@spiffymeister said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
I think we're trying to say CB is that a weaponmaster doesn't need to always WIN
Where did i say that?????
-
I said that mechanics HELP storytelling if you're good at them, not that they are the end all be all of them like some people here are interpreting it. How is it unclear that i am not saying you can't do anything without them but that they HELP your storytelling if you are capable of it?
-
Which is all fair and good Bowser. Balancing events is damn tricky, especially with a last difference in character power (or player skill). And the game should be challenging, and players should not feel entitled to be given sweet loot, just because they shoot themselves in the foot time and time again.
My point of all of this that there -has- been a shift in mentality. If it is slowly being changed back, that is only awesome, and will help matters a lot. And this is not just in the dm hands, it is JUST as much a community issue.
We players need to stop using loop holes and flaws in the mechanical loot creation, to maximize our characters needlessly. There is an issue atm with damage immunity and barbarians / monk kits, which is fucking shit up. Same goes for "saves builds" etc. I think one of the key issues, is that the shift from participation to winning, has made some players optimize the shit out of the mechanics, which has forced dms to UP THE CHALLENGE on scripted and dm quests. However, this shift needs to be discouraged from BOTH dm and players alike, because IMO, it has reached a point where, if you do not, you are fucked. I know from harsh experience, that I CANNOT survive just about any lvl 7+ quest, unless I have CB, or Bernard, or Bhaliir, or an equal powerhouse with me. And I am not that shit at mechanics, even if I do not focus on them much.
-
@wabbitseason said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
People are massively overlooking the BADASS part. On purpose or not, i don't know.
Give a WM level 40 and tell him to click on whatever's red, sure he'll be a "badass". That's effectively where things stand at the moment - this much sought after level of badassness is won with loot and consumables and xp, not skill. Let's not associate it with rewards like faction ranks or PrCs, you may not see it but it absolutely sets the tone for get-success-quick schemes. And worst come to worst if a DM wants to make a PC a "badass" they have a level up tool.
Are you guys purposefully TRYING to interpret what i am saying in THE absolute worst manner possible or do i need to explain the point i was making in absolute detail? Because i hate it when people are putting words in my mouth that i never ever said.
-
This thread sure is fracturing in all directions huh? I don't think @Mr-Moloch or @SpiffyMeister are suggesting that mechanics aren't helpful in achieving greatness with a weapons master. They're just saying that it isn't the only way.
You can easily be a bad ass weaponmaster, who can't win a fight because he's old now, but certainly in his younger days I'll bet he was super spry! Hell I've often thought about playing a gnome weaponmaster who is always referring back to "his day" when they "fought dragons up hill in the snow."
That kind of character could still be a bad ass despite being thrashed so long as he was able to make the whole experience amusing. Though that is just one minor example.
Being mechanical apt =/= a bad ass. In fact sometimes what makes a bad ass is having the mechanical advantage, but never using it to gain any real ic advantage. I'm not saying you're wrong in your assertions @CitizenBane so much as you're looking at it in a narrower scope than need be.
-
Mozart is correct. Thanks. :)
-
@mozart-of-orcs said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Being mechanical apt =/= a bad ass. In fact sometimes what makes a bad ass is having the mechanical advantage, but never using it to gain any real ic advantage. I'm not saying you're wrong in your assertions @CitizenBane so much as you're looking at it in a narrower scope than need be.
No i'm not. I'm saying if you're able to play both ends of a skipping rope you'll do much better at it than if you only choose to use one end.....
-
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@mozart-of-orcs said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Being mechanical apt =/= a bad ass. In fact sometimes what makes a bad ass is having the mechanical advantage, but never using it to gain any real ic advantage. I'm not saying you're wrong in your assertions @CitizenBane so much as you're looking at it in a narrower scope than need be.
No i'm not. I'm saying if you're able to play both ends of a skipping rope you'll do much better at it than if you only choose to use one end.....
I understand, but I think what I was mostly focusing on and what the dm's were focusing on is this sentence @CitizenBane
"[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?"
It's a strong statement which is narrow in scope. Nobody is suggesting its wrong, just that its not entirely right. I can certainly see how some might interpret it poorly and say you're suggesting "if you aren't mechanical, you can't play this class." Which is what I'm sure was the sentiment felt by some of the above posters.
Keep in mind I'm not saying that sentiment is RIGHT just that it's how it CAN be perceived.
-
Yes. If you are a good role player and a mechanical kill beast, weapon master becomes awe inspiring bad-ass. As it is with ALL PrC, or even just standard classes. Is that what is being discussed? I mean of course it helps to have both, and of course you don't need to have both.
-
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@mr-moloch said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Just today, someone stated on discord "You cannot be a weaponmaster without knowing your mechanics". If PRCs are earned based on engine knowledge, and not on stories, we have a problem.
If you're going to present what i say in a bad light, at least use the entire quote.
[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?I don't see "Cannot be a weaponsmaster" ... do you?
I'll even answer CB's question!
They'll take on students, who they 'teach' as a 'master' to use their blade They'll host contexts, tournaments, taking people to cool spots in the module to test their skills. They'll find IC means to enchant their blades via cool stories, DMs will shower them with rewards for good roleplaying and making fun stories (often as they talk over how to better do this with the help DMs want to provide).
No where in there will they have to be some master of mechanics who understands what the extra % to saves does vs the mind affect spell from monster Y on quest Z.
Another point came up about half-fiends spawning on a quest; DID you ASK the DM running it about it or bring it up? Or let it just annoy you and linger to create bad feelings? I do not blame people for bad experiences, or even not wanting to talk about them, but I will always say--I can't HELP if you don't let me.
Sorry but how do the mechanics not help storytelling in the instance you mentioned?
Because they just don't. You do not need to know ANY mechanics to do any of this. Honestly, its your biggest weakness as a player! You have no idea how to play without mechanical knowledge, sometimes it pulls down your ability to just tell a story. Its one of the points I'd love to see you develop, play a character that isn't a murder-machine on quests just to see how it goes to focus more on the story of a character struggling to survive than a fine-tuned killer who handles every battle with his technical skill. It'd be a fun experience for you to realize HOW wrong you are--because this is exactly how I play characters and part of how I became a DM here. I know it works. Heck, I've played mechanically gimped "rp builds' and done cool things with them, so give it a shot instead of just disagreeing it can't be done!