How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over
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Monument of Ooze was built with the mindset 'lots of weak enemies that do specific types of damage.' It's intended to make you feel you need to keep moving and pausing will land you in a whole pile of shit.I think MrMoloch and I can stand to watch this quest being ran, our do it ourselves on some DM quest PCs we can level up and run it on, as it's a long quest that was originally intended to be 3 areas instead of the present 2 (some people didn't think exploding ooze antibodies in an underwater area doing persistent acid damage was terribly fun :( )
It was not meant to be a traditional quest with X number of encounters with X number of chests.
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It's in the tone and delivery, in the wording - You can say the same thing without coming off in a negative light.
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A quest that could be looked into specifically is the frost giant quest.
Ran this the other day with a group on my level 7 character. Afterwards it was unanimously decided that the quest simply isn't worth it.
It was a long and tough quest in that it cost a lot of consumables to get through but gave crap for xp, gold and loot. Maybe we got unlucky on the loot side of the things but the stuff that did drop was subpar compared to other higher level tough quests.
XP wise doing a full clear I got about 700xp including the turn in xp on a level 7 character. The quest is full of fairly tough Undead dwarves that continually respawn and give no xp or loot (which makes sense considering they keep getting back up). There was a lot of them and they took a lot of time and healing to get through for nothing in return. As well as being a constant danger of getting back up in our back line while our frontline is fighting another large swarm of enemies.
Gold wise there was almost none from the loot or the turn in and it didn't come close to the amount of potions and healing wands that had to be used to get through it. We got about 400gp each at the end and most of us spent easily over 1k gold or more in potions and csw wands.
Loot wise there is multiple areas with large spawns and yet only one set of loot at the very end after killing the boss. Lots of side paths with enemies but no treasure to be found down any such paths. The number of actual items we got was very small, I've done much faster and easier quests that ended up with way more and (on some of them) way better loot. Maybe we got unlucky with the actual items themselves but it was very lackluster.
This help?
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--Moderator--Please be nice!
~~@mrpenguin-phil said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
It's in the tone and delivery, in the wording - You can say the same thing without coming off in a negative light.
He's not being negative, he wants to help. You are coming across as whining without offering solutions.
"Too buff reliant!" IT'S A QUEST WITH DEADLY THINGS THAT WANT TO KILL YOU." That's the point of D&D. You need spells to protect you. Entire sourcebooks are written on the subject.
You and Vaga's posts sound ridiculous, tbh. If CoA is not your game, then go play elsewhere.
No offense intended, ofc.~~
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@angryowl said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
A quest that could be looked into specifically is the frost giant quest.
Ran this the other day with a group on my level 7 character. Afterwards it was unanimously decided that the quest simply isn't worth it.
It was a long and tough quest in that it cost a lot of consumables to get through but gave crap for xp, gold and loot. Maybe we got unlucky on the loot side of the things but the stuff that did drop was subpar compared to other higher level tough quests.
XP wise doing a full clear I got about 700xp including the turn in xp on a level 7 character. The quest is full of fairly tough Undead dwarves that continually respawn and give no xp or loot (which makes sense considering they keep getting back up). There was a lot of them and they took a lot of time and healing to get through for nothing in return. As well as being a constant danger of getting back up in our back line while our frontline is fighting another large swarm of enemies.
Gold wise there was almost none from the loot or the turn in and it didn't come close to the amount of potions and healing wands that had to be used to get through it. We got about 400gp each at the end and most of us spent easily over 1k gold or more in potions and csw wands.
Loot wise there is multiple areas with large spawns and yet only one set of loot at the very end after killing the boss. Lots of side paths with enemies but no treasure to be found down any such paths. The number of actual items we got was very small, I've done much faster and easier quests that ended up with way more and (on some of them) way better loot. Maybe we got unlucky with the actual items themselves but it was very lackluster.
This help?
Can you confirm: dwarves NEVER gave XP or gave it the first time, but not after popping back up?
And yes--that's very clear and specific and helps me a whole lot.
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I never noticed them giving xp anytime I saw one killed it did not give an xp notification. But I was also fighting and trying not to die like I tend to do so it is possible every time I looked it was us killing a respawned one.
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@khamal
I think there's a balance to be had in buffing because they want to kill you, and always having buffs.
For me, the problem lies in that, you often can't not have a base of Animals, Bark and Shield, and I don't think buffs should be a baseline, I think they should be a bonus you need because it's tough, not a baseline where stoneskin/displacement/haste is the bonus. Maybe that's not the experience you've had, but it is for some of us, so we're bringing it up- Maybe we don't have a fix, but that's why we brought it up - Let's... discuss it, get everyone's thoughts and see if there's a change that should be kept in mind for V6.
As for the whining, there's a difference between "Hey, let's try to be more specific so I can help more, yeah?" and "Why aren't you being more specific. I can't help if you're not." I'm just trying to point that out as friendly as I can so that this thread doesn't dissolve into a flat out argument. Moloch isn't at fault, I don't blame him for being frustrated, but I still think it's important to point out.
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I deleted this.
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We could just delete every long lasting buff from the game and balance it around that... But I think that is much worse than the alternative of spell buffing existing in a D&D video game?
Anyway, we're getting a little off track and just kind of bickering at this point.
Specific suggestions are infinitely more helpful! The suggestions thread is there to be used, after all.
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@mr-moloch Yeah probably missed that. There was a lot to read. I know you being here talking it through is you showing how seriously you take it. I am just speaking from previous experiences because a player contacted me about this post and asked me to place my thoughts.
As I said, I am not active and have not been for some time. Thus, I did not know of the server boom as of late and I am deeply glad to hear it.
I can only speak for what I saw in the past. Most of the examples I gave likely have no precedence whats-so-ever in CoA as of 2018. Which is great! The fact that this post was made means that some of that mentality that I witnessed, is still there to some extent.
I was asked to put my 2 cents in, and I am glad, because that 2 cents got me a lot of info in return. It actually makes me tempted to come back.
As for what we can do?
Players. Don't be a jerk. Think objectively about yourself and why you are getting into each conflict. Honestly, as long as you have an IC reason, you should be fine. If you're doing it due to a competitive urge though, maybe let it go?
Or, perhaps contact a DM. I think Spiffy would totally run with an idea like this. Come up with a side character who is evil. Make him freakishly strong. Make him a challenge to beat. Then put him on the sidelines. Communicate with your DM in waiting about any players that are making big strides and need knocked down a peg or two. Not necessarily levels, but just the humiliation of getting their butt kicked. Come in as some like Sellsword that was hired to mess up their plans a bit. I'm just kinda snowballing here, but you get the idea. There are ways to use your competitiveness to benefit the server as a whole. You get some fun time 1v however many in the group. Saves the DMs some time having to come up with and prepare some big obstacle for a Player Quest, and the player gets their butts stomped without having to deal with full loot/death.
As for DM's, perhaps every other month or so, find yourself a VIP. Find a player that has been making some waves but not getting a lot of attention from DM's and scoop them up into your loving arms. Help them get going, run a few quests, and then send them on the way. Spend a month or so after that focusing on the server again, then grab up another VIP when you feel ready. I know it's a lot of work, but I feel like it will have the DM's also feeling a lot more invested in the plots going around the server. Not that ya'll aren't or anything, but we all know sometimes there are player plots that don't interest certain DM's. Following a player a bit closer for a bit of time will have you learning more about the plots they are involved with their friends as well.
The only thing about that is I know it's extra work, and a LOT of extra work if you plan to have the option for other DM's to continue the plots after your month is up. I understand how hard it is to pass off plots to other DM's at times because of all the lore and stuff you came up with.
Anyway. You asked for ideas, there's a couple for both sides.
Edit: I think the difficulty should also be buffed, but that's gonna be a decision for the more mechanically capable minds.
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I want to talk about a few things.
First of, for many years, sometimes posts of this sort would have gotten shut down so fast. Things that wasn't brown-nosing, any sort of unhappiness, was often treated as dissent that deserved to be openly insulted. People did this publicly and when you tried to fight back, only then would DMs get involved and tell people to calm down. No penalties for the people who were insulting other people. They always got away scot free. This has changed in recent times, and now this is no longer acceptable. But it wasn't a case of a change in enforcement, people just realized collectively how it was wrong.
So I am very happy that this conversation has progressed this far, without it being locked, and without people starting to trade personal insults. More times than I can count, people would deliberately derail a thread, and force the DMs to lock the discussion, and they were able to successfully do it multiple times. Even DMs did this.
Secondly, DMs have traditionally been very defensive in CoA. Often times, attempting to have a discussion on what was seen as problems, ended up with a point blank argument with a DM who obviously was trying hard, and probably dismayed that someone found errors in what was done. This lead to people unwilling to bring matters up to DMs, because of a fear of being ignored from then on, on plots and other matters. Starting from sometime last year, I feel this also has changed alot. The thread I started on Lowbie Quests being punishing was taken well, and changes were made. DMs are now more willing to listen to complaints and criticism and engage with players over how to make things better.
Thirdly, I feel that mechanical power became a serious concern in 2015/2016. Basically mechanical power won everything. It didn't matter what your story was or how good your RP was. Mechanical power basically drove everything. The people who was able to beat every single DM NPC in battle, and could tank and plow through DM events, became celebrities, and everyone wanted to follow them and be part of their quest trains. People acknowledged this became a serious problem in 2017, and because of this, we had conversations on the 4 Player Types and other linked matters, and I feel that has culminated in events like this election, which is rewarding RP over Mechanics.
Edit: Fourthly, CoA-Sims was a dirty word for a long time. Its come back and in a much more positive light. The people that we drove away because of our focus on Action-Intrigue are still gone, but now people can actually do CoA-Sims without fear. This too has been a positive change, and one I hope will continue. Sure, adventuring and killing tons of monsters is exciting and interesting, but some people want to cook food, serve beer, open orphanages, feed the poor, and more. I hope they will have more support to do so from DMs.
While I do not currently play on CoA, because of frustrations I have with character progression, I want to acknowledge and applaud the changes in CoA over the last year, which has shown how the server has overcome its "descent" into becoming a Diablo-styole RP Action Server. Some elements of this still remain to cater to the "Killer Player Type" but overall, I feel that the server now rewards Socializers, and Achievers rather than mocking them as it used to to. Explorers still have got the shaft because the way the server is built still hates explorers, but that is being fixed in v6, as the DMs have said.
I sort of get how O'louth feels about things, and yes, he is not alone. Sometimes when I was trying to effect change (and openly being called a "whiner" and being shut down by others) people contacted me and told me of how they supported me, but were unwilling to speak up for various reasons, and I know for sure O'louth isn't alone on some of what he has brought up because I have brought them up before, but with much less success.
I agree that much of this has to do with many current plots having to do with character-vs-character these days, rather than character-vs-enviroment or character-vs-DM Plot. To succeed in CoA, often another player has to lose. This was a huge problem for me too, and it ties into certain things that CoA has.
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Only the leader gets rewarded. Everyone else is a meatshield. Therefore, everyone wants to be a leader, and this leads to frustration because it always seems like the same few players are always winning. From what I can tell, this is still true.
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Participation is its own reward. Linked to 1, on many DM events, simply being there and gaining XP/GP(if any) and loot is the reward. If you want something more, you often have to "give up" on rewards in order to curry favor. Banite Church did this, Nobles did this, as did many others. You cannot use this to barter into plot progression. You cannot say "I defended X gate, fought in Y war, battled with Z monster" because you weren't the leader, you were just a follower.
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Empty Participation vs Actual Participation in Player Plots. I have often seen this. Empty participation is when PCs have no link to what is happening. They are just drawn by the GP being offered or are just plain bored. Often this is a loss-making exercise as GP is expanded without any actual reward, but the leader who is "providing content" to these PCs are rewarded for entertaining people. The meatshields who tagged along gain very little from this, especially if the leader cannot afford to provide rewards. I feel DMs reward based on quantity rather than quality here.
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In order to win, someone must lose. That is fine. What is not fine is constantly losing. CoA gave me actual depression at one point because plot after plot after plot on character after character failed and failed, and it always seemed like I was losing against the same few people. When you simply cannot win over months and years, you leave unless you are heavily invested in the game, mentally and spiritually. It creates bitterness and rivalries between players. CoA still forces conflict on people, just because it seems to be more exciting to have two rival groups rather than two cooperating groups. I can see this is still true. I don't fault anyone for this. I just wish there was more Eveningstar rather than more Old Town.
This lead to my thread a few years back of Spread Out the Win.
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@khamal
What makes your style of play more valid than mine that you can just tell me to play elsewhere? I'm saying shit within my opinion of what I think would make the game better, mostly to see if anyone agrees, try and keep it nice. -
@vagabond3103
Ease up
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Ideally we should have a variety of quests where you can relax and casually RP while going through it, or you're focussed on mechanics sm,ashing button guzzling intensity as dispels fly across the screen and you're constantly shouting from mercy as unkind gods look down on you in apathy as they try and find a little humor in their immortal lives.
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So- Arkhams events, compared to yours? :P
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Nah more a Arkham event compared to a ParasiticNematode event back in the day.
That guy was known for TPWs
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My thoughts in terms of buffing/balance/etc: the problem lies from the get go as the low level soloable quests are too easy and provide a lot of consumables and gold, none of which you have to spend because of the rewards. The quests are very easy when you have the ability to pay for cheap strong buffs in the Spire. For a little gold you get all your basic buffs and you can run through a couple of quests with them. This means you're taking much less damage and using less healing supplies, which you never paid for anyway. This causes early consumable and gold bloat. You don't really need to buy any equipment at low levels as you usually find pretty decent stuff on quests, more gold stockpiling.
The quests get harder at mid levels. But with all your stockpiled consumables you can manage. Also with your gold hordes; "I'll take ten bark potions and 8 shield.. Eh make that ten". Players become very reliant on mass consumable use, abundant healing, and easy access to buffs. Now the quests must be balanced to this PC power level, hence why players feel they NEED all the consumables etc.
Too much consumables, too much gold, too easy to equipt from quests, too easy access to potions/wands en masse, and cheap buff machine in the Spire. So with more variables added to quests, which/what potions buffs tools skills tricks, this will heavily favour the mechanically smart players and widen the gap from the less mechanically able players. The more variables the more right or wrong choices you can make. Plus mechanically smart players will take advantage of kits/abilities that others will less so, though Im not familiar with these.
I just think there's a balance issue caused from too much bloat. Then DMs will respond by adjusting the challenge level to match.
This is just my opinion keeping in mind I don't play often. I've my own opinions of changes but I don't think they align with the current server so I'll leave it at that. As for the winner mentality discussion I think players are focussing too much on what other players are doing. Mechanical players tend to get mechanical rewards which in the grand scheme of the setting is not that impressive. If you don't want to get molly wopped in PvP then you need to be more creative and know your limitations. They only beat you because you engaged in the contest on their terms. You can't win a battle on a front that doesn't exist.
Extra note: you do not have to be a very good mechanical players to play something like a Blackguard. Straight up PvP is only one aspect. I'd be 100 times more scared of a blackguard who has 3-4 nasty thug followers who are trigger happy than a optimal build character who wins all the duels. Add some charisma, make it happen :P and who can play those nasty thug followers, mechanical players please!
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As for running through quests with minimal rp: everyone's done these quests a lot, the obvious RP avenues are a bore for these quests. Try mixing it up, talk about something with your party that is outside the realm of the quest, something that they are interested in RPing. Or focus your RP on your character and their quirks rather than the quest events. Poke fun at the character rushing forward "My goodness you have quick feet for a Dwarf, slow down would ya!" , "This cave is horrible can we stop a moment and have a snack?" Then they can reply "No hurry up you lazy bugger". There you have it, a bit of spice that doesn't put everyone to sleep.
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A comment on the whole "buffs / consumables ordeal and questing."
Everyone uses Raznors / Buff NPCs. The spells last long, longer than a level 8 spellcaster can cast themselves, and for 60-120 gold, meaning even spellcasters uses the buffs to save spell slots. It is only the very long quests in remote areas, that take long enough for the buffs to run out.I never see any character that does not at EVERY encounter have Barkskin + Shield + Stat buffs from Raznor up and running. And just about any level 1-8 quest can be done with relatively ease, and even weak parties or builds, as long as you never let the buff spells run out.
However, the level 5-10 quests, or 7+ quests, are a different matter. I CANNOT survive these quests without a CB, Apple, Kingsman, Bernard quest team. If that is the intention for them to be very hard, that is fair. But it does seem like there is a big gap in challenge rating. And that is across all the quests in these level ranges.
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Why do we need the Raznor buff thing anyway?
It removes a chance for more PC interaction, get a player to buff you if you need it.