Prestige Classes: What's Wrong?
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In the past, DMs would sometimes relevel you to allow you to take more of the Prc even if you were high level. You just needed to ask.
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It's not that players don't want them or don't aim for them, but they are rarely awarded. Speaking from having been on the other side of the curtain, it boils down to:
- Concern that it will make a character too strong (not true of all cases of course but the ones people aim/ask for are always the powerful ones)
- Wanting to know how it will open new doors to new stories, not close them.
But yes, there are a number of viewpoints on what criteria should be fulfilled to earn a PrC. I do feel we cut away an interesting aspect of the game by making them so difficult to acquire. Ideally for me, their most op abilities would become DM granted only and the PrCs themselves made app-less (earned by competing say, a scripted quest)
But then they wouldn't be very prestigious.
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That is true. However, most single classes peak in their power progression around 8/9/10. In my case, I would have had to forsaken second level ranger spells, evasion and a third FE, if I had asked to be deleveled. The same could be said for most other classes, such as spellcasters, who would lose out on what makes them awesome, to take more levels in a prestige class.
That is why IMO, the Prcs need to be altered to be more viable at lower levels.
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The ones who tend to get PrCs tend to be very mechanically powerful, leading to a tendency to think that PrCs are overpowered and need to be earned witb more hoops to jump through, leading to a tendency for the ones who tend to get PrCs tend to be very mechanically powerful, leading to a tendency to think that PrCs are overpowered....
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I'm all for PrC like Spell Thief, Eldritch Knight, whatever ones give perks for combining otherwise unsynergestic base classes.
I'd also love warlock as a base class, and the soul forge ? (the sorcerer version of a cleric). I'd love to see someone with the time to pull those together in a hak from the PrC hak (its otherwise unbalanced and rather bloated as a hak).
My thinking on PrC is that its mainly the level issue here. You can't qualify for most or get much out of them at such low levels as we maintain on the server. Its one reason I'd like to see our average level increase past 7 while we make sure we do not create a huge level gap between new characters and the high levels. I mean, I personally joined COA because most PCs were around level 8-12 when I began playing and I knew my level 1 PC would quickly catch up to them.
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@thune said in Prestige Classes: What's Wrong?:
The ones who tend to get PrCs tend to be very mechanically powerful, leading to a tendency to think that PrCs are overpowered and need to be earned witb more hoops to jump through, leading to a tendency for the ones who tend to get PrCs tend to be very mechanically powerful, leading to a tendency to think that PrCs are overpowered....
Generally speaking, knowing mechanics is a good way to not suck at a game, which leads to having people rely and depend on you, which leads to involving people, which leads to creating awesome.
I know it's a tired ol' trope but honestly- if you genuinely want to play high level characters with awesome stats and the best quest gear, you need to learn your numbers. This isn't a suggesstion, it's basically a necessity. A weaponmaster generally leads to be GOOD at being a weapon master. A dwarven defender needs to be GOOD at being a defender, and a Palemaster is going to receive the undivided attention of several good aligned players, and needs to be GOOD at fighting them off if he wants to survive...
However, RP centric classes like Knight, Harper Scout, Shadow Dancer. Divine Champion (arguably also requires numbers), and dragon disciple allows for much more role play and is more forgiving when it comes to conflict in a mechanical sense. Pick concepts that play to your strengths and you will generally be better off and make increasing progressive toward Prestige Classes.
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For the record, most the DM team strongly disagrees with Spiffy on his "know the system" claim here.
If you genuinely want to play a high level character with the best gear, then you should do things that are fun and exciting and the DMs will reward you with gear and high levels.
Spiffy is entirely wrong. DO not listen to him here. End of story beyond knowing that his underlying point that NWN is a game about mechanics and math, and sure knowing those helps--but its a game--and games are fun and doing and creative fun for people will yield you most any reward you ask the DM team for that will make more things more fun.
That said, again, Spiffy is just wrong. Ignore him on this.
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It's still a given that someone who is being chased after by others, like a pale master for example, will be taken down with ease if they don't know how to defend themselves or if they don't surround themselves with capable allies.
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@citizenbane That's true of anyone. Its also always been a given on CoA that if you just take someone down who is making things plenty of fun for people and whose story has not reached a 'end' that the DM team wants it to reach will find ways to come back from any take down done by more mechanically savvy players.
That's one of the core values of CoA that differentiates it from other servers. Our prime focus is fun and story over mechanical savvy (even though we admit like Spiffy says that mechanical knowledge certainly helps to have). Its just not ever been, and never will be while I'm around and have a say in it, the end all be all of the server.
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@mr-moloch said in Prestige Classes: What's Wrong?:
@citizenbane That's true of anyone. Its also always been a given on CoA that if you just take someone down who is making things plenty of fun for people and whose story has not reached a 'end' that the DM team wants it to reach will find ways to come back from any take down done by more mechanically savvy players.
That's one of the core values of CoA that differentiates it from other servers. Our prime focus is fun and story over mechanical savvy (even though we admit like Spiffy says that mechanical knowledge certainly helps to have). Its just not ever been, and never will be while I'm around and have a say in it, the end all be all of the server.
Which is a good thing. It certainly shouldn't be. You'll find no argument from me on that subject.
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The thing with being killed, is that it doesn't neccassarily mean the end of your character.
That's why our rules state that (and there's a tiny bit more to it!) in general, the only person who can end your character is you. Like I said, there is a little more to it, but mostly, that's it.
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IMO, my last few dwarven PCs earned alot to become DD, and maybe should have been. But I never know at the time if that is enough. I always wait for DMs to say "Your PC qualifies for PrC, here is your loot and title etc"
Make it clear. Do PCs need to app once they feel they are ready? Or will a DM/NPC make this judgment when they feel its ready?
Either way, you can get told "No you need to do more" or it never happens.
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@khamal said in Prestige Classes: What's Wrong?:
IMO, my last few dwarven PCs earned alot to become DD, and maybe should have been. But I never know at the time if that is enough. I always wait for DMs to say "Your PC qualifies for PrC, here is your loot and title etc"
Make it clear. Do PCs need to app once they feel they are ready? Or will a DM/NPC make this judgment when they feel its ready?
Either way, you can get told "No you need to do more" or it never happens.
This seems to be a recurring theme here. That it's never clear when the bar is met, or what the bar is.
I interacted often with Kham's dwarven character in 2015 and the character in question did come off as very DD-like. Yet we didn't see one until Dobby got it.
I wholeheartedly agree it needs to be more clear. I may be remembering wrong, but back in v3 certain classes like Blackguard had in the application info: "You must list your deeds" to even be considered.
Might be good to consider bringing that back?
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I too, have had a problem in the past (and still to some extent) with knowing when to app.
I hate hearing "EiG" because I never know when the appropriate time to send in an app is - or whether I even should.
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Generally; PCs may do a lot, but have mercy, guys. I know you think we're omniscient, but we're really not. When we say "app for PrCs", all I am really looking for is
- What have you done thus far
- What do you plan to continue to do after you get it (even if it's more of the same, if it's really FUN for others, that's cool with me)
Applications are not really "forms of approval", as much as they are a record for us to keep track of who has what. True, if you just app for PrC without really doing anything, we might talk to you and figure out how you can make it happen.
I also want to address that YOU thinking you deserve it doesn't necessarily mean so. Try to look at things objectively too, as much as possible. Yes, maybe you were shafted. Not denying DMs can drop the ball, we're human. But think if that's actually what happened, too. It's a collaboration.
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@polaris said in Prestige Classes: What's Wrong?:
Generally; PCs may do a lot, but have mercy, guys. I know you think we're omniscient, but we're really not. When we say "app for PrCs", all I am really looking for is
- What have you done thus far
- What do you plan to continue to do after you get it (even if it's more of the same, if it's really FUN for others, that's cool with me)
Applications are not really "forms of approval", as much as they are a record for us to keep track of who has what. True, if you just app for PrC without really doing anything, we might talk to you and figure out how you can make it happen.
This is also true. I've said at times over the last couple of years that applications are less "Why do you want this?" and more "We need you to explain your ideas / we need to track what's been granted".
I myself will be talking to a DM or two about my goals, and updating my plot ticket to reflect it. I know I haven't earned the one I seek, but starting down the path.
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@forte said in Prestige Classes: What's Wrong?:
@khamal said in Prestige Classes: What's Wrong?:
IMO, my last few dwarven PCs earned alot to become DD, and maybe should have been. But I never know at the time if that is enough. I always wait for DMs to say "Your PC qualifies for PrC, here is your loot and title etc"
Make it clear. Do PCs need to app once they feel they are ready? Or will a DM/NPC make this judgment when they feel its ready?
Either way, you can get told "No you need to do more" or it never happens.
This seems to be a recurring theme here. That it's never clear when the bar is met, or what the bar is.
I interacted often with Kham's dwarven character in 2015 and the character in question did come off as very DD-like. Yet we didn't see one until Dobby got it.
I wholeheartedly agree it needs to be more clear. I may be remembering wrong, but back in v3 certain classes like Blackguard had in the application info: "You must list your deeds" to even be considered.
Might be good to consider bringing that back?
You're remembering wrong. When apping for PrCs you did so BEFORE character creation, listing what you intended to do to achieve it. DMs would then slap you with it when they deemed you had earned it.
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@Khamal I had every intention of DD-ifying your last dwarf and Kuldar before I poofled. You can blame my thesis research for that one. Sorry!
This brings me to the point Polaris made - it may seem like DMs are omniscient, but we're not. If you can just send one of us a note or message anywhere saying, "Hey, I want to achieve X PrC/I think I've achieved X PrC" so that we can put it on our radar, that's probably the best possible first step towards getting it.
On another but related note, I think the mechanical level of most PrCs are just terrible when taken with the context of CoA. The server has become a breeding ground for insanely optimized level 10-12 builds (fighter/bard/ranger anyone?) to such a point that most PrCs are actually detrimental from a mechanical capacity or just "all right" when juxtaposed to taking another level of a base class. I'm not the best at balance, so I don't feel confident making my own suggestions for changes to these; however, I'm sure Moloch and Spiffy have good heads for it.
Also, yes, 100% please add more PrCs like Spellthief and Frenzied Berserker. It can be done!
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@arkham-warlock I literally just need someone who can put the hak together; I'd then put it all together.
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I can totally help come up with custom Prestige Classes tailored for CoA