Retaining players/Lower Numbers
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So we joked around a bit about this in IRC, but thinking more in-depth about it, I do actually think it's kind of a problem that at least deserves to be thought about.
It's extremely hard for your accomplishments to feel like they mean something on the server.
Hell, like 99% of the time a measly commoner is possessed by a DM it's to shit-talk one of the PCs. It's very hard to get any sort of recognition for prior deeds, let alone just a recognition of the fact that your character is actually pretty damned remarkable if they are an adventurer. I've been luckier than most on this particular character (Toussaint has had a party thrown in his name, in the Spire) which is really nice and it makes it seem worth the hours I've put into the server, but there's a lot of people I know who have this idea that the DMs essentially focus more on cutting down characters who think they're hot shit than playing up the characters if they might very well be hot shit.
At least one of my (many, many) friends I've tried introducing to the server quit because of that. "Why should I stay around when none of my characters' actions actually matter?" more or less. I mean, you have to move heaven and earth and borderline kill the gods themselves before you fundamentally change anything in the module. It feels very unresponsive and closed-off, and when the big stuff does get changed it feels like stuff really only change when it's NPCs who take center stage (and I realize it might not actually be the case, it just FEELS like that). Even in the cases I can think of where a player managed to change something in the module it seemed like the DMs had already planned to do it and just decided that it was a good excuse.
If a person starts becoming notorious enough to be a household name, let them become a household name. When they die, maybe a statue or something shows up? If a PC in faction X beefs with faction Y, have NPCs in the module reflect that change (like the Tammarast and Lhal Bravos, those are great, because they show the very real clash between Tammarast and Lhal - but why not introduce those things when it's PCs who take the fore?) If a low-life gang in Old Town is clashing with another low-life gang, have gang members start congregating and hanging out wearing the colours of said gangs. If a druid got really fANGRY and called upon the beasts of the wild to rend civilization asunder have more vicious animals spawn in the wilds. If a Banite cult leader starts getting influence in the north quarter, have guards wearing Banite colours start hanging out near shops for "protection money" or whatever.
Just show that player actions actually matter. I think that'd go a long way. I certainly have a blast whenever my character is recognised for something he's done. It's the sort of stuff that's worth logging in for.
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I debated whether to include this last bit or not, but here it is, with the chance of seeming a bit ungrateful (which is totally not my intention).
Hell, if I'd seen fucking "Paertrover Bravos" hitting the streets in response to something I did as the last active Paertrover Retainer I'd probably have stayed on that character a bit longer. Instead, it just felt like nothing I did really managed to change all that much. I was told to "keep doing stuff in the swamp" and so I did, but after a while it can become a bit Sisyphean. I could not even force through a change of scenery from being stationed in Eveningstar Castle to being stationed in the North Quarter. And if you have no influence on what your faction does - even as the only really active player in it - what's really the point? Getting loot is nice (I got a really cool and awesome bow courtesy of Spiffy near the end) but it's not the same as feeling like your actions matter.
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I agree it's pointless putting factions way out of the city, nobody cares about swamps and there isn't the DM coverage to keep an eye on things and make actual changes to the module if stuff does happen.
Half the slums blew up the other day but you wouldn't know it going in there. If stuff happens IG that changes the landscape of the server ACTUALLY change the server, it makes it feel more alive and less static.
I don't really get the whole Halfling plot / faction either. Again stationed way out of the city and the faction only accepts one race? Does such an "exclusive" faction work with a smaller player base? That's why the Scriptorium works so well, literally anyone can get involved.
Likewise the whole East Way thing - when you have such a small playerbase why introduce a whole new working settlement? I liked the idea of the original vision of V5 - the city surrounded by horrors on all sides with one or two small hamlets dotted around the place.
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Eveningstar and Eastway only came about cause PCs pushed for it. Old Town could had used some nice marks from recent events, but it is also under represented in size atm. We're currently looking into this! Keep the feedback and ideas coming :)
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Eveningstar and Eastway only came about cause PCs pushed for it. Old Town could had used some nice marks from recent events, but it is also under represented in size atm. We're currently looking into this! Keep the feedback and ideas coming :)
It's cool that PCs have had an impact in the creation of those areas - but what do they actually do?, what purpose do the areas serve for the greater good of the server?
Is there a cool mystery attached to the areas players can find out about? Is there an underlaying plot for them or are they there "just because" - obviously the answer to that is a big fat FOIG, and I really really hope there is some awesome grand plan or plot going on in the background.
Likewise as I said, the Underdark areas are awesome but they are SO BIG! Condense it down to suit the server size.
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We need more unique merchants selling items that fit the theme of the area. What's the point of going to the deepest an darkest place in UD, if you can't find a single Turnip merchant? Disappointing!
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Basically what I'm saying is: Everbody deserves to own something on the server, even if that something is just acknowledgement that if they stick it out, they're going to get some sort of palpable reward.
Everybody is playing a grand hero or a grand villain in their own mind, with only one notable exception that I can think of. Well, maybe two. We sit down and log into this game, many of us, to watch our own stories unfold just as much as we want to watch the server story, or other peoples'. However, the message that we're being sent is that our time is not worthwhile.
They aren't kidding about the application process; I've seen that done better elsewhere. In the three days it takes for a character to get routed through and approved, here, I could already be two days into playing the thing elsewhere.
There's two ways I'd propose this go (I'm not just coming to the table to complain):
First, there's the 'D&D Campaign' Route. That is to say, like is being suggested and has been suggested a bit earlier, the DMs need to start paying attention to more average characters like the titular "Jon Snow" with his whitewalkers idea. Sure, it isn't canonical. Sure, you didn't come up with it. Sure, that's likely to be boring and uninspiring. But, not everybody here is going to be a New York Times bestselling author, so it's your job as the campaign DM to come up with some NPCs, drop them in, tease it out of them, and then record what you've done so the other DMs can play off of it. I know you guys don't keep good paperwork, but you just can't say that every DM is equal if you don't.
Me: Hey, can I get you to run X?
DM: I don't know anything about that, go ask Y.Me, another time: Hey, which DM is in charge of X?
DM: No DM is ever "In Charge" of anything/We share responsibility on the server/Bla bla bla^ This boondoggling needs to stop. I know I'm not the only one who's had this type of conversation. You either need to come out and list what DMs are in charge of what (because, let's face it, you all have your specialities) or you need to work at unifying the DM team's knowledge of what's happening IG a lot more than what I've seen in the last couple months I was playing.
This route involves the DM team rolling up their sleeves, committing heavily to 'becoming the setting' instead of pushing their own private agenda and fun, and good player/DM communication will need to happen.
Route 2: A lot of mechanical scripting.
Do some research. Go out and play on other servers. There's servers out there that still pull near to the numbers that CoA did. Servers like Sinfar. Servers like Arelith, or EfU. I'm going to break taboo here, and just start talking about what unifies those three listed servers; scripting. It's straight up scripting that allows those weird fetish-porn Sinfar people to do.. uh, questionable things. (Maybe this wasn't a good idea after all?)
Arelith has a heavy focus on doing it yourself. They positively reward people for this. They've got a crafting system where you can create signs and chairs and other nonsense, and people have utilized this to great effect. This is heavily scripted, but doesn't use hak packs.
EfU is a lot closer to the way we do things, and a lot more on the evil side. Still, there's plenty to explore there without DM involvement. They've got scripted patrols for guards, better scripted werewolves, and they give their players a lot more freedom to move around than we do. Exploring the module on EfU feels like it has worth, because it doesn't feel (to me) as grindy as the stuff we've had here. Might just be because I've been on CoA for so darn long though. ^^;
So what does Arabel have? This deserves talked about. The thing that sets our server aside is something I think we should enhance.
We've got:
We've got strong points. Really strong points. We're the hardcore server when it comes to death - one of the most hardcore servers. 3 levels per respawn? We're a proving grounds. We're story-heavy. You've got to have a good reason to kill someone, and when you kill them, you know they're staying dead. You've got to have a really good story, otherwise, you won't get noticed - you've got to have an amazing character, good roleplay, fine writing skill.
I think part of our problem, actually, is that we're elitist! There's nothing for the majority of the sorts of people who still play this game to do on CoA. We've scared away anyone who can't write, terrified people who can't PvP very well, and the sort of player we reward isn't just the top half, or even the top 10%, it's the top 5%. That is why, when compared with Arelith, EfU, and Sinfar, I think our numbers are really dwindling. There's just nothing for the middle, or lower-tiered writers to do except 'get good' on an endless grind train that, frankly, is exhausting and almost boring to participate in.
Just participating on this server needs to have intrinsic value. Even if that participation is screwing around with some crafting system or minioning for someone, we don't need to push every single character into having to be the most amazing badass paladin of winmode hero of Arabel minister of justice and finance and trade, just for the chance at some sort of ownership of something. We've got guide after guide of how to optimize characters plot-wise to make them better characters or gain more attention from the DMs and other players, and we've gone and forgotten that we do need the 'common rabble' to gain attention from.
This is some pretty heavy hyperbole of course, but I'm writing in such a bombastic way to try to convey the scope of the problem relatable; the standard, the bar, for what we consider good roleplay on this server is now so high that not even the good roleplayers meet it consistently. On other servers, I've become a High Priest by popular acclaim in less time than it's taken some of my applications to be approved on Arabel. That's a fact, a reality of NWN servers that we're going to have to deal with.
We need to figure out something for people to do on this server that doesn't wholly rely on DMs and DM attention, or we need to come out and admit that DM attention is what makes this server great and start making the tools to enhance that. Or we could meet somewhere in the middle. But I do sincerely think that something along these lines needs to be done.
I've read some of the other posts in the forum over the last month and I think we're moving in the right direction, it's just that I want it to continue.
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^^
Gallant speaks truth. I've played here for 10 years and while CoA has many new mechanical goodies and scripts, the overall mentality has never changed and I fear won't change. PvP = Win, top 5% get uber rewards (usually the same players) and powerful influence (PrC, special position etc) is a retirement event rather than a stepping stone. -
RedGallant's got the right of it, in my mind. I think I agree with everything in his last two posts, hyperbolic or not.
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tl;dr - A semi dynamic quest system utilizing the wilderness, that will moderately reward solo/group exploration by sending them out into the world based on the PC's given role i.e. combat or crafting.
While I've only been playing on CoA for roughly a year or so, off and on, I'll add my own ideas.
When I log on sometimes (right now my schedule is sporadic) I feel there is not much I can do on my own. Either people are doing a quest or there is not enough online to run a scripted quest. I've been running around the wilderness lately just exploring, and I've found a few hidden xp markers- but I think the world outside of the city is being under utilized. There is _so much potential_for the areas outside of the city walls to tell their own story and to live a life of their own. In most modern MMO's, exploration grant experience, and in some games, you can literally choose to either do solo or group quests while exploring the setting. I think CoA might benefit from such a dynamic system.
Overview:
- There could be an NPC quest giver set up for players to talk to and receive a quest. These NPC quest givers could give similar quests based on their location; i.e. Citadel or Shylock's.
- Quests could be broken up into 4 different types; Martial, Stealth, Caster, and Crafting.
- Each quest would obviously have you do different things; Martial classes would go out into the wilderness and kill X amount of Y creatures for Z reward. Crafters would go searching for, you guessed it: crafting materials. Gather/Harvest/Mine X material for Y reward. Or, perhaps- Craft X amount of Y item for Z reward. And so on and so forth.
- Each quest could have an area it spawns creatures or materials to gather. Go kill X amount of Orcs in the Hullack. The PC would then travel out to the Hullack, searching for the specific spawn area, fight the Orcs, kill them and return to receive the reward. (Edit: Just realized that this could interfere with DM events; I suppose having some sort of temporary 'area transition' for the quest could eliminate this/be easier to turn on or off if a specific area is needed for DMs.)
- Quests could be daily and/or repeatable, only grant experience once per day, and after the first completion, award a mark of honor or something to that effect. The marks could then be traded in for gear, potions, crafting materials, spell reagents and more.
- Quests can be soloed or done as a group. I would image the more added to the quest, the higher the difficulty.
- Special "World Boss" quests that cycle every week.
- Random, dynamic quests that are found only in the wilderness (this is probably outside of the scope of my idea).
The system doesn't have to be overly complicated or rewarding. Moderate rewards depending on the type of quest, difficulty, distance and group size would work. I think a simple system like this will get new/old people out of the city and traveling with others, PC's to roleplay while traveling(I actually enjoy RPing 'on the road'), see areas that aren't visited very often, give solo players the option of going out on their own, help crafting PCs find materials and get rid of the excess items that they grind, and give combat PC's/evil PC's something to do while there is downtime.
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Rules
- Don't post comments, positive or negative, about other people's ideas.
I shouldn't have to remind a bunch of adults on reading rules and sticking to them.
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Rules
- Don't post comments, positive or negative, about other people's ideas.
I shouldn't have to remind a bunch of adults on reading rules and sticking to them.
Who did that and where? TBH condescending and vague comments like that don't actually help at all! The forum is such a mess you need a degree in alien languages or an IQ of about a trillion to find the rules anyway!
I think this has been quite a controlled, civil discussion which is rare for the internet, so well done team.
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It's written in the first post in this thread.
Lots of good suggestions in this but the topic has now just become dozens of posts with this player or that agreeing with each other so should probably lock it now.
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One last one.
Decisions.
Very often, DMs will discuss a matter and come to a decision. But players never know about it because its never announced. We don't know what the DMs have talked about or decided on, weeks, months, or simply never. Even on important issues. For example this conversation. DMs will refer to it in the DM forums, talk about it, maybe or maybe not decide to do something. But players almost never hear about it, or what has been decided.
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Some of this has likely been said elsewhere also, but as I see Real Life demand more and more time out of my schedule, I keep thinking what would make me set aside MORE time to get IG.
I think, as some others mentioned, that we must focus on the “average player” as much as we focus on the top 5% of the player base. I often have time to glance at the forum from work. But if I do not see anything “fun” going on, or signs of awesome shit happening, I will be less reluctant to log in. A good example of this are the IC rumors. I know that the design of them being vague is that you must log in to ask around. But if they are too cryptic, then they are not luring me ic. And if they are not posted, then I will have no idea what is occurring.
Scheduled events that tell more of what is going to happen will likely make me cancel whatever social event I otherwise had planned. I loved the campaign CF did, and I really liked his approach to telling a story, by dividing it into smaller pieces, and posting when something would happen. Only reason I could not take part, was time zone issues, which are what they are.Finally, offer a sense of things being shaken up. Thune mentions in the post above something about transparency. I can see on the post rate of the dm team, that they are doing a ton of stuff behind the scenes. But if you as a player cannot see, read or learn about this, then you get a feeling of nothing being done. I would argue for more transparency, and even offer my help if the dm team needs help.
Back in the day, Moloch opened up a Builders Guild, for players to help the dms with the workload of building new areas or things for IC. Perhaps, if the dm team is being swarmed, such an approach could be taken to “other areas” as well. Forum cleanup, plot building, storytelling etc. are areas where I would argue players could contribute.
In Real Life I work in Marketing. When we are working on for instance, Digital projects, we have to combine a lot of different skill sets to make a project a success. We have designers, creative storytellers, analysists and number crunchers working alongside the people actually building the website, or creating a campaign.
Our server is 13 years old. Most of our player base has been here so long that we can trust them to respect the server enough to for instance, not share the secrets of a plot they helped a dm design, or not abuse the secrets of an area they helped build.
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It'd be cool to post a chunky little forum post, with a few cool images, whenever the team implements a bunch of things in one go, which does tend to happen, or even at the end of implementing several things over time, even if previously announced via "Changes to the module"
Could even include MYSTERIOUS NEW THING ADDED with a big picture of a question mark, and a super faded out image hiding a clue in there.
That'd be freaking sweet.
Kinda a little like the "promo" stuff we did for "v5" with the secret claimable bases and other stuff about factions and things, but on a more consistent basis.
Players could probly even help with it, via a fairly short IRC conversation with a DM or two, probly?
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@RedGallant:
I think part of our problem, actually, is that we're elitist! There's nothing for the majority of the sorts of people who still play this game to do on CoA. We've scared away anyone who can't write, terrified people who can't PvP very well, and the sort of player we reward isn't just the top half, or even the top 10%, it's the top 5%. That is why, when compared with Arelith, EfU, and Sinfar, I think our numbers are really dwindling. There's just nothing for the middle, or lower-tiered writers to do except 'get good' on an endless grind train that, frankly, is exhausting and almost boring to participate in.
Just participating on this server needs to have intrinsic value. Even if that participation is screwing around with some crafting system or minioning for someone, we don't need to push every single character into having to be the most amazing badass paladin of winmode hero of Arabel minister of justice and finance and trade, just for the chance at some sort of ownership of something. We've got guide after guide of how to optimize characters plot-wise to make them better characters or gain more attention from the DMs and other players, and we've gone and forgotten that we do need the 'common rabble' to gain attention from.
100% Agree here.
Having been on the casual player side for most of the time I played here, at some point it feels pointless to seek those high RP and PvP standards. Casual players should be able to fill the shoes of a minion, even if he is on 2-3 times a week (as long as he does not metagame info it should be fine). This is mostly a player mentality issue though. Player groups tend to focus on PvP win I feel, not trusting random dude X to be in their group. Not an easy mentality to change at all.
From DM side, a random DM event on the random group of casuals, that has no involvement in any main plot, should not be a rare thing. On the contrary, it is what keeps casual players playing and once in a while, some plot might come up from those as these events tend to inspire people. I realize DM resources are limited and we feel it is better if these resources are focused in main world plots, but in reality it should be 50-50 split with casual events, no matter how limited the DM time is. An idea would be to assign a few DMs to this purpose alone, nothing else, no scripting, no main plots meddling that requires a lot more preparation, just preparing random DM events and trigger them first chance they find a random party of players.
Not everyone aspires to be a city hero, some even like CoA sims and stuff. There should be some attention for these players too. We grow up and our time gets limited, so many of us gradually become casuals, then realize there is not a lot for a casual player to do and achieve and fade away. The thing is we tend to consider casuals less important to the setting, but we miss the point. It is the number of casuals that make this setting feel alive in a way. The lead players have earned the attention, sure, but their awesomeness feels less awesome in a world without the casuals that will talk about them in their RP, follow them in their adventures, look up to them IG.
Maybe some of these things mentioned have changed these days, in which case do ignore this post. It is a 15 year old game then again, what can you do about it? Still there is no better RP environment in the PC game scene.
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DMs do what they want to do and that isn't going to change. We are definitely, however, reading this feed back and coming up with our own ideas and solutions to problems that are commonly agreed upon by the player base.
No, I am not going to reward the person who just quests all day, yes, I am going to reward someone who orchestrated an amazing plot but failed to bring down Lhal.
As for elitism, I am 100% in the camp that says players should always strive to get better at roleplay and the mechanics the game is founded on. If you don't want to understand how large the fireball radius is, how long a round/turn is, and more, I am not obligated to make the game easier for you. If you're actively trying to understand how to make the game more enjoyable/less punishing by being able to analyze a situation and adapt, I am more than willing to sit down and help.
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Not everyone likes politics/geopolitic stuff either. It's just sad because that's the most comon stuff we see around.
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Please try to stick to Siths rules, that goes for DM's too.
Here are the rules again, they are in the first post.
Rules:
- Don't post crap about changes that just benefits your character or your particular faction/player group, this is a discussion to try and examine ideas that could make changes for everyone.
- Don't post comments, positive or negative, about other people's ideas. Just stick to your own, that way the thread can stay on track and not get derailed. It's meant as a spitballing/brainstorming exercise to generate ideas, so don't go around saying just "not going to happen" or "it's already in game" (if a comment is going to be made by a DM a little reasoning will be given). This goes for DMs too >_< Do feel free to propose alternative suggestions or expand on other people's suggestions as your own.
- Don't trash the thread either, if you don't have an idea to put down don't comment.
- Keep within the topic (this is a general thread rule)
Examples:
More soloable ore two man quests