4th Ed and V5
-
I know many people LOVE the setting they are comfortable with. However, from every design stand-point it is horrible.
The setting is bloated with different gods, most that are terribly similar. Some may call it variety, designers would say it has unnecessary ornamentation. How many gods of duty, loyalty, and protection do you need between Tyr, Torm, and Helm? Not adding in the several amongst the non-human deities.
Add in, the setting says that gods should not share or over lap portfolios, but that happens all the time. A dozen gods are gods of magic, when there is suppose to be only one god of magic per Ao's decree and a main focus of the setting is on that.
The setting also is pretty offensive to many neo-pagans. 4th Edition is just as bad, but I know I can not stomach seeing a god that I pray to used as a game devise. Its worse that roughly a quarter of these gods are part of my actual faith. I could just imagine the hollering if they added in Jesus of Sembia as a new god of martyrs and rebirth. No one really bats an eye over Ilmater, Tyr, Tyche and others.
I have to agree that both Torm and Tyr are a bit redundant. That being said, there is a big difference between cleaning up the duplicates and revamping the deities. They changed ALOT with 4E. They entirely got rid of the Seldarine (And all race based pantheons) in favor of all races worshiping similar deities. FR lore wasn't just tweaked. It was hacked up into little pieces, fit together like a crude Frankenstein jigsaw puzzle, and the player base (Split up into their different sub groups which tend to not get along) was left to try and pick up the pieces and find a way forward.
I miss the world created by Ed Greenwood, and not this WoW laced setting that seems more like Greyhawk than it's own setting anymore.
-
I like the fact there many dieties, with similar areas of intrest… It helps add to the feeling the FR is a "world", rather than just somewere we play in if you know what I mean.
-
@Broken:
I don't appreciate being called the lowest common denominator.
I apologize for offending… 4th ed and WoW are just not my thing, and I know personally several players of both who share... hmm... common charactertistics, shall we say...
-
I dont see a issue with overlap between Torm, Tyr and Helm as being a issue. Protection, Duty, and Justice are very seperate things.
Do they all deserve being "major" gods? No.
As far as gods of magic, as long as Azuth, Velsh, etc are SUB-gods of Mystra, I dont see a problem.I actually see the two situations as quite similar, and I think they should be handled in a similar way, as related demi-gods under a single one.
as far as whether v5 goes the v4 route - I dont care if it follows canon, and I expect that we'le learn something from teh DMs about the deity goins-ons in the 50 years
-
The problem with the new Forgotten Realms, from a design standpoint, is that they should have made a new campaign setting, rather than upset the Realms so badly that they ended up alienating (probably more than) 50% of Realms fans.
A spellplague may be an interesting idea, but the FR is an old setting with a thousand stories set in it. Turning it upside down like that was about as clever as introducing the Sith Empire in Middle-Earth would be.
The 1000 Gods may have caused some "bloating", but when it's kind of the selling point of your setting, you shouldn't change it overnight.
And of course, the changes are so drastic, that it's not easy to love them all. I appreciated a few and hated others.
And then they did things like calling high elves "eladrin" and similar "design choices" that I am not sure anyone can like. I cringe a lot reading the Forggoten Realms wiki these days.
Back to lurking for me (ETA on the new computer: 2-3 weeks :roll: )
-
The problem with the new Forgotten Realms, from a design standpoint, is that they should have made a new campaign setting, rather than upset the Realms so badly that they ended up alienating (probably more than) 50% of Realms fans.
A spellplague may be an interesting idea, but the FR is an old setting with a thousand stories set in it. Turning it upside down like that was about as clever as introducing the Sith Empire in Middle-Earth would be.
The 1000 Gods may have caused some "bloating", but when it's kind of the selling point of your setting, you shouldn't change it overnight.
And of course, the changes are so drastic, that it's not easy to love them all. I appreciated a few and hated others.
+1
Sometimes I get the feeling they wanted a new setting, but used the FR for brand recognition issues.
-
Maybe the Pathfinder setting will be the new thing in a few years, it will definitely get more attention now that there is an MMO in development which is aiming to be in that world. But back on topic, it seems like 4E or the majority of the changes except maybe the political ones are largely unpopular so I think it might be better if we wrote our own timeline instead of borrowing from 4E with the exception of a couple of political ones.
-
The setting also is pretty offensive to many neo-pagans. 4th Edition is just as bad, but I know I can not stomach seeing a god that I pray to used as a game devise. Its worse that roughly a quarter of these gods are part of my actual faith. I could just imagine the hollering if they added in Jesus of Sembia as a new god of martyrs and rebirth. No one really bats an eye over Ilmater, Tyr, Tyche and others.
As a matter of fact, Ilmater is an obvious replica of Jesus, so there is no religious bias there. :) That said, i don't understand why you choose to be offended, considering how artists and storytellers of every people and in every era have used the gods as characters in their creations.
On topic: Irregardless of my feelings towards the 4ed, i'd like to note that changing editions might cause a lot of confusion among the less nerdy players and those who don't have time to relearn the lore from the scratch.
-
From a pure design point, he is right.
I know many people LOVE the setting they are comfortable with. However, from every design stand-point it is horrible.
The setting is bloated with different gods, most that are terribly similar. Some may call it variety, designers would say it has unnecessary ornamentation. How many gods of duty, loyalty, and protection do you need between Tyr, Torm, and Helm? Not adding in the several amongst the non-human deities.
Add in, the setting says that gods should not share or over lap portfolios, but that happens all the time. A dozen gods are gods of magic, when there is suppose to be only one god of magic per Ao's decree and a main focus of the setting is on that.
The setting also is pretty offensive to many neo-pagans. 4th Edition is just as bad, but I know I can not stomach seeing a god that I pray to used as a game devise. Its worse that roughly a quarter of these gods are part of my actual faith. I could just imagine the hollering if they added in Jesus of Sembia as a new god of martyrs and rebirth. No one really bats an eye over Ilmater, Tyr, Tyche and others.
If that's true, then equally, I'm sure there's a clutch of neo-Canaanites or Kabbalists out there offended by the use of Mr. Moloch as a forum name. :P
-
Like our current custom deities could be any worse than the people who get paid to make them…
Would this even matter, really? Might as well make the server have nothing but custom gods/gods that rose to power during the time skip.
-
From a pure design point, he is right.
I know many people LOVE the setting they are comfortable with. However, from every design stand-point it is horrible.
The setting is bloated with different gods, most that are terribly similar. Some may call it variety, designers would say it has unnecessary ornamentation. How many gods of duty, loyalty, and protection do you need between Tyr, Torm, and Helm? Not adding in the several amongst the non-human deities.
Add in, the setting says that gods should not share or over lap portfolios, but that happens all the time. A dozen gods are gods of magic, when there is suppose to be only one god of magic per Ao's decree and a main focus of the setting is on that.
The setting also is pretty offensive to many neo-pagans. 4th Edition is just as bad, but I know I can not stomach seeing a god that I pray to used as a game devise. Its worse that roughly a quarter of these gods are part of my actual faith. I could just imagine the hollering if they added in Jesus of Sembia as a new god of martyrs and rebirth. No one really bats an eye over Ilmater, Tyr, Tyche and others.
If that's true, then equally, I'm sure there's a clutch of neo-Canaanites or Kabbalists out there offended by the use of Mr. Moloch as a forum name. :P
Mr. Moloch though is the name of a cartoon character who owns Moloch Industries! Hardly offensive.
-
Tyche is the ancient greek God of Luck, I believe.
And to be perfectly honest, anybody who is offended by their God (Goddess) 's names being used in a game, and are offended by it really need to get off their pretentious old high horse.
I am a Christian. Yet I often involuntarily might spout out "Jesus Christ" when I hear something bad, or whatever. We all do it. And using it in a game is pretty much equal to using it in a sentence to express shock and horror.
My personal opinion (which will probably get alot of shit from some folks), but wey-hey.
-
BLASPHEMER!!!!
-
I kinda like the Invictus/O'louth idea of a new setting with some new custom gods. A Clean and Fresh Canvas to paint on. With a Blank Slate the Pantheon can be whittled down and new Gods Like Banda can be slipped in. Once the hole that was Arabel fills up with water the Nite Wolf can become a fishing lodge on the shore of Lake Arabel. V4 Teh End…
Just lift Arabel up and transport it to another plane. Would be easy seeing it's built on an old Netherese Flying City or whatever. Plunk it down Count Duckula Style in a new and strange realm full of new Nations, Gods and a new Environ.
Helm should remain for the simple reason that once upon a time some-young-guy thought that "The Vigulant One". http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/vigilant.htm Meant this. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vigilante He promptly Rolled up a Character, then much Chaos and Hillarity Ensued! A part of server History.
-
-
Echoing Styxx and some other people:
Another plane would allow for some interesting changes, I think. Different gods could rise to power; some could still be present but have lessened reach to a far-off plane, while still others might be the original inhabitants of the plane. I'm kind of thinking… There could be a rather 'real' area around Arabel, but as you go further and further out things get more chaotic, the plane shifts more, the laws of physics get more mucky. Maybe the plane itself travels, slips through the Prime Material (Probably not how that stuff works, but
fuck it, who gives a damn about FR canon? Seriously, if it has Drizzt in it that's more than enough reason to ignore it. We can do better than Drizzt and Elminster) and picks up different attributes, different people from strange places. That brings the focus on the city itself, but also provides a lot of room for exotic outside threats.Plus, and on-topic, you could use this to incorporate some of the more 4E type changes.
I dunno. I think it's a neat idea. Also, first post in a long while. Styxx sparked it, blame him.
(Double also; What happened to BG? I actually agree with most of the things he posts, these days! This has never happened before.)
-
fuck it, who gives a damn about FR canon?
For one, it helps us all be on the same page lore-wise and to create consistent fleshed-out character backgrounds which ring bells for other players. If you take all this away and substitute it with half-baked custom setting, the server will lose a lot of depth.
-
For one, it helps us all be on the same page lore-wise and to create consistent fleshed-out character backgrounds which ring bells for other players. If you take all this away and substitute it with half-baked custom setting, the server will lose a lot of depth.
I couldn't have said it better
-
CoA has never been canon though, just based on it, the reason for this is so people cant meta game things. People still do, but turn out being wrong, or looking dumb in front of NPCs.
I agree there needs to be a basis, so concepts can have depth, but I'm not entirely in agreement this should come from source books. Elements, sure, but if you go too far, you end up with characters who 'once worked with Drizzt, and apprenticed to Elminster' so many concepts to play without needing to resort to source books.
-
You can't stop metagaming by just limiting availability of lore sources. People will still learn the new lore and thus will be able to metagame it. The only thing that changes - this lore will be not as rich and huge as FR and the settnig not so fleshed-out and deep. It's like trying to fix a leak in the pool by cutting off the waterflow. The leak is still there but people can't swim in the pool any more.