Lycan tweak suggestions
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After giving werewolf a go, i want to make a few suggestions for change.
Lycans is incredibly underwhelming for what i feel it is supposed to be. -I- thought they were supposed to be this scary, monstrous being who inspires fear because they're capable of ripping your throat out and tearing you to pieces. A monster that inspires fear etc and should have that juicy ECL 2 for a reason, because of that power.
After testing it through a few things and comparing it to the same class, 1 a simply human, another a different subrace and finally with the werewolf, i can say with complete honesty that werewolf is by far the weakest of the three.
1: Damage
-lycan damage is pathetic, to say the best. Why? Let's run the numbers real quick. Let's take a werewolf who starts with 16 strength. That werewolf then gets +6 to his strength score. He is now doing 1d6 + 6 damage. That's 7-12 damage. That's the same amount of damage as a level 1 character with 10 strength who picks up a greataxe. Sure, admittedly he will have a little higher average damage but the level 1 commoner with the greataxe will beat him on crits almost every time. At level 9 the damage is increase to 1d8, which gives a maximum damage of 1d8 + 6. or 7-14 damage. A level 9 werewolf can now do the same maximum damage as a level 1 character with 14 strength and a greataxe/greatsword (Except it's less because the peasant with the greataxe gets an extra +1 damage because of two hander), but the peasant has the better crit chance. If i were fighting a lycan, and they are not a rogue, i would be mostly able to ignore them. (Well, assuming we're at levels 7+)To summarize, the damage is absolutely pathetic. Far worse than human form.
2: Crit range and multiplier
-The lycan weapons have 20, x2 crits. Combine that with the damage i showed you above, and you are in for an awful, awful crit range and damage3: Lack of buffing potential
-Lycans cannot give themselves keen edge, flame weapon, not change to a better weapon. So not only do they have an already much lower damage before buffs kicks in, they drag behind even more when buffs -do- kick in. I know, you might use the argument that a lycan can get some strength buffs and you'd be right, but so can peasant Joe with his 10 strength and a greataxe, and he'd become even better for it!4: Weaknesses
-Lycans have a relatively low AC unless you decide to go all in on dex. They can use armor and such, admittedly, but they lack the ability to use shields and they only have the damage of a very bad one hander. A lot of things also have +1 weapons and even a level 1 cleric can cast magic weapon, and then penetrate their DR effortlessly. I noticed that on the quest i kept testing on, (ants) i was mostly safe due to DR, but when i faced the one foe that had +1 weapon, i got ANNIHILATED. And you can bet that no pc who is going to face a lycan is going to forget their +1 weapon at home.My tweaking suggestions, are as following:
-Increase lycan damage from 1d6 to either 1d12 or 2d6 at level 4, increasing it further to 2d8 at level 9. Lycans are currently not even remotely scary and anyone with over 50 hp can literally IGNORE a non-rogue lycan in PvP.-Make their crit range either be 19-20 -OR- increase the crit multiplier to x3 instead of x2. Currently lycan crits tickle.
-Increase lycan DR to 10/+1 AND 5/+2 at level 4, and then give them 2/- to all physical damage at level 9. Lycans are very squishy right now.
-IF you decide no no changes, then i suggest removing the +2 ECL from them, they are currently pathetically weak :)
To summarize, lycans do pathetic damage, are very squishy and are overall far weaker when shifted than in human form. The only time to fear one is when you see them in their human form and not sihfted :) Lycans are currently not something to be feared, because you'll be thankful it's a lycan coming after you and not a human. When you look at the attributes involved, sure, a lot of the numbers look good, but when you try how it works in effect, it is awful.
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The +2 ECL meant I dropped my character. I never really got a chance to see it at high levels.
In v5 i think lycans were really really strong but exceptionally weak versus silver. I was surprised I never saw something like that.
One thing though, can certain classes can make lycan work? Monk, cleric or rogue perhaps?
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@JoeKickAss said in Lycan tweak suggestions:
The +2 ECL meant I dropped my character. I never really got a chance to see it at high levels.
In v5 i think lycans were really really strong but exceptionally weak versus silver. I was surprised I never saw something like that.
One thing though, can certain classes can make lycan work? Monk, cleric or rogue perhaps?
Lycans were not strong in that version either, really. But if a class "makes them work", it's because of the class, not the subrace ;)
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I have to agree with most of what CB has said
Even with very high strength when shifted I've come across Mobs I can barely damage because of their DR whereas someone else with a GMW buff on them can.
The low damage output also means PCs can easily out heal dmage done to them even with crits.
DR could also use a buff or the +2 buff at 9 be brought down to 6 or 7, Pretty much all faction weapons are +1 and can bypass it easily.
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I hesitated a lot before adding in my point of view since I am not an expert at the mechanics nor pvp. However, I would disagree with this to a point.
A werewolf (that I am certain was nowhere near lvl 10) was able to destroy my lvl 10 PC. Eating through stoneskin quickly and getting through the DR of my gear easily. His damage output was quite good. This was a one on one, no summons or companion. Things might have turned out different is so, but somehow, I doubt it.
With a silver weapon, I manage to hit him... 2 or 3 times? So he had decent AC.
Concerning spawns, keep in mind they are being revised by the dm team too, so some are still OP.
I would agree that 1d6 seems low, however. Perhaps bump it to at least 1d8, to match bite damage of a large lycan?
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Don't they have regen too?
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Nope, they dont have regen
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As someone who recently felt the brunt of two werewolves I'd agree they need more damage. They currently hit like puppies.
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@MiladyMouse said in Lycan tweak suggestions:
A werewolf (that I am certain was nowhere near lvl 10) was able to destroy my lvl 10 PC. Eating through stoneskin quickly and getting through the DR of my gear easily. His damage output was quite good. This was a one on one, no summons or companion. Things might have turned out different is so, but somehow, I doubt it.
With a silver weapon, I manage to hit him... 2 or 3 times? So he had decent AC.i was level 7 and had a barb rage going whilst shifted to boost my ab, the character hits fairly hard but that is mostly his str bonus tbh, point to note though is that any damage bonus on gloves is actually carried over to claw damage too, so a level 4 with alleyfolk golves found in one of the soloable quests gets d6 lycan +d4 glove + str dam which is significantly better than the base lycan.
As far as defence goes pve is often easy as there are relatively few +1 weapons about but as CB says when you do come up against one you really feel it, and have to chug those extra potions to boost ac bark doesnt stack though maybe if it dod then that would make up for the lack of a shield?
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I feel like some of the comparions aren't apples to apples.
And too little value is put on the passive benefits.at 9:
10/+1 and 5/+2 DR. (no dispel)
You have multiple attacks: one wounding 3 with regen, one +2 attack. (these cannot be disarmed or dispelled)Going into Hybrid form is an action, vs someone else having to cast various buff spells to get +2 weapon or flame weapon or keen. Lycans get all their buffs at once and they cant be removed.
In terms of low AC, they get the +4 and also if you play a were cat instead of a wolf you get two more AC, you lose a bit of dmg but its not like with a normal race where you get locked out of good weapons cause you have to go weapon finess. you can get the AC and AB from dex and still have a decent "weapon" that does 1d8 base.
I wouldnt go overboard with the dmg boost, but agree it might need a nudge up, more crit would definatly make them scary but that can also be a bit OP.
just some thoughts.
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@Satoyo said in Lycan tweak suggestions:
I wouldnt go overboard with the dmg boost, but agree it might need a nudge up, more crit would definatly make them scary but that can also be a bit OP.
just some thoughts.
Point is more that for +2 ECL, I'd want something pretty strong. Drow usually get +2 ECL if I recall.
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We’re discussing it and will get back to you soon. There are a couple things like how the multi attack works that I made a mistake on that dramatically altered the lycans from what we intend. So yeah, my bad and screw up. Oops.
Give us a bit of time though. Thanks.
Retired
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@Prof-Misclick said in Lycan tweak suggestions:
We’re discussing it and will get back to you soon. There are a couple things like how the multi attack works that I made a mistake on that dramatically altered the lycans from what we intend. So yeah, my bad and screw up. Oops.
Give us a bit of time though. Thanks.
All understandable, it's a new feature so understandably needs some tweaks
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@Satoyo said in Lycan tweak suggestions:
I feel like some of the comparions aren't apples to apples.
And too little value is put on the passive benefits.at 9:
10/+1 and 5/+2 DR. (no dispel)Unless your only point is questage, then, well, enough things have +1 weapon for it to be convenient but not reliable no any means. Against other players... well, i don't know of anyone, -ever-, who intended to go against lycans without a magic weapon, noone is that dumb ;)
As for 5/+2 dr, that too is easily overcome with a gmw from a friend. So no, i assure you, i am not putting too little value on these.You have multiple attacks: one wounding 3 with regen, one +2 attack. (these cannot be disarmed or dispelled)
Vampiric regen is very unreliable, and not nearly as powerful as people give it credit for. And yes, these cannot be disarmed or dispelled, but if it could be, currently i would use that dispel on someone else who could actually hurt me to a serious degree.
Going into Hybrid form is an action, vs someone else having to cast various buff spells to get +2 weapon or flame weapon or keen. Lycans get all their buffs at once and they cant be removed.
And i have shown in easily understandable examples how underwhelming those buffs are.
In terms of low AC, they get the +4 and also if you play a were cat instead of a wolf you get two more AC, you lose a bit of dmg but its not like with a normal race where you get locked out of good weapons cause you have to go weapon finess. you can get the AC and AB from dex and still have a decent "weapon" that does 1d8 base.
In terms of AC, yes, they get the nice +4, but don't confuse powerful with quality of life. This is easily copied by drinking a barkskin for only 1 less AC. Don't get me wrong, it's nice, but you're heavily overestimating its power. As for the rest, the only non-weak barbs throughout CoA history have been dex based ones which admittedly can be nice. However, you're still losing out of shield AC while being stuck with a mediocre one hander damage with pathetic crit range and multiplier. So that +6 dex AC of wererat is matched by slapping on a +1 large shield that anyone has access to.
I wouldnt go overboard with the dmg boost, but agree it might need a nudge up, more crit would definatly make them scary but that can also be a bit OP.
just some thoughts.
Thanks for commenting and giving your thoughts!
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ECL 2 and Normal application
- Monk levels not permitted, regardless of base alignment, on Lycans due to balance issues.
- Take note of the base alignment that most Lycans of a certain type adhere to, shifted and not. It is possible to play a non-standard alignment, but it will require an excellent IC reason outlined in the application to be presented. (A Chaotic Good werewolf, for example)
- Note: Plane Touched, Genasi, and Lycanthropes are available for all races. Lycanthrope can be applied on top of subraces (water genasi werewolf for example is possible).
FINAL LYCAN
Inherent properties/abilities
- Wisdom +2
- Darkvision
- Spot +4, Listen +4
Hybrid Form
- Extra attack per round
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- BAB 1-5 get 2 attacks per round
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- BAB 6-10 get 3 attacks per round
- Damage Reduction 10/+1
- Damage Reducton 5/+2
- AC Bonus (Natural) +4
- Gloves are not usable and will force unequipped
- Weapons/Shields are not usable and will force unequipped
- Armour is not force unequipped
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- AC from armour is applied while shifted.
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- Properties from armour are applied
- Claws and Bite are spawned and force equipped on shift
- Consumables can be used
- Spells can be cast
- Special abilities (Bard song, Barb rage etc) can be used
Level 4
- +1 Enchantment Creature weapons (Does not shown on character sheet but is working in combat log)
- Claws 1d8+1 Monster damage
- Bite 1d4 +1 Monster damage.
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- Additional Property- Regeneration: Vampiric +2
- 10% Movement speed
Level 7
- +2 Enchantment Creature weapon (Does not shown on character sheet but is working in combat log)
- Claws 1d10+2 Monster damage
- Bite 1d6 Monster Damage
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- Additional Property- Regeneration: Vampiric +2
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- Additional Property- Wounding 3
- 20% movement speed increase
Animal Form
- Take on STR/DEX/CON of Animal
Sub-types
Werewolf
- Strength +6, Dexterity +2, Constitution +4
- Fortitude + 5, Reflex +5, Will +1
Wererat - Neutral Evil
- Strength +2, Dexterity +6, Constitution +4,
- Fortitude +4, Reflex +6, Will +1
Werecat - Neutral Evil / Chaotic Good [Under review]
- Strength +4, Dexterity +6, Constitution +2,
- Fortitude +2, Reflex +6, Will +2
Wereboar - True Neutral
- Strength +4, Dexterity +2, Constitution +6,
- Fortitude +6, Reflex +2, Will +2
NOTES
- Creature weapon attacks are selected randomly from available choices
- Creature weapons automatically pierce DR up to whatever DR the creature has
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- 10/+1 allows creature weapons to pierce x/+1
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- 5/+2 allows creature weapons to pierce x/+2
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- 10/+5 (Stoneskin) allow creature weapons to pierce x/+5
- On Hit: Wounding can be applied multiple times and works as: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Wounding
- Regeneration: Vampiric works as:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Regeneration%3A_vampiric
This is the final lycan subrace for the foreseeable future so we can move on other things. As with everything this is subject to modifications at out discretion.
