Death penalty.
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This is born of a long brooding absolute irritation with what is an otherwise fantastic server and I've finally cooled off enough (after dying again no less) to post a coherent topic on the subject.. .
Why the hell is the death penalty so damn crippling?
Yes, death should be feared and loosing a chunk of XP is a hell of a lot more preferable to a permadeath situation but after dying a few xp from 7 only to be slammed back down to 15 xp -above- 5 after one death I've come (again) to the point where I'm ready to put down my character and call it a day.
I know for a fact I'm not the only one who's hit that wall (and done so repeatedly!) and there are those who -don't- pick up and carry on. But those same people usually get stuck in the in rut of 'quest grind, buy supplies and quest train until level (X). then die and repeat and wind up getting frustrated/bored/otherwise angry with things and just give up.
I really don't have anything to add to what I think is a pretty obvious and consistent irk with a lot of people but I'm still left wondering -why- it has to be crippling? Is it the power level maintenance? Surely there are better ways. . .
Yes, you don't -technically- need levels to RP. That's a given. But I'm not going to get bogged down in the fruitless argument of how important (or not) having those numbers next to your class is. The bottom line is that if you're going to be mechanically successful in combat (and thus more survivable in adventuring and so forth) you -need- to have hitpoints, AB, skills to distribute and so on. It's a limit of the game and needs to be aknowledged.
What I'd like to hear are some creative ideas and suggestions to maybe re-tool the absolutely devastating xp loss system we have now to maintain the idea of this server's powerlevel without basically taking a humongous dump on what can be -months- of questing for those people who aren't on the quest trains or just aren't that mechanically proficient.
climbs off the soapbox and goes to sob in the corner
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Every action needs to have consequence.
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Well, I don't really mind the way it is now, but in the creative spirit, I think a possible solution would be to have a lowered xp penalty for respawns at levels 1-6, leaving the penalties for raises and ressurections the same as they are now. I think that'd make it easier for people to get to the 'average' level of the server, without imposing too much of a penalty on higher level characters who can often pay for a raise anyways.
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Get a raise. or a ressurection.
Far less loss.
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At level 8, you are guaranteed to go back to level 6 unless you're halfway to level 9. You lose more once you reach level 9 and henceforth.
I personally find it annoying and very…discouraging when I lose the exp equivelent to a few weeks of questing. Infact, that's the reason I stopped playing my last two characters. The only reason I haven't stopped playing my current character is because he RP's and interacts with others and I wouldn't want to ruin that.
I believe the raise/res penalty is what...10-20%? That might not seem like much, but that can easily make you lose a level once you get to level 8+. At that level, it's not a question of "I should get this to keep from deleveling." it's "Which option would make me lose the least ammount of levels."
However, apperently DM's think that this is totally fair and they have more experience on the subject then me. I've heard rumors that true ressurection was removed from game because high level characters could spend 5k and raise without losing exp.(Which by the way, is completly fair for that sort of price IMO.)
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@Kathrine:
Why the hell is the death penalty so damn crippling?
It's death. Its normally more than crippling, usually it involves never being alive again.
So the penalty actually isn't too bad.
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The death penalty is supposed to make death feared…otherwise there would be no point in taking risks. There are many servers which have significantly less harsher death penalties which i have played in the past and have discovered it isn't as much fun when you know there is very little risk. Anyway I believe it used to be much harsher than it is now so I am against lowering it anymore than it already is.
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It's a lot without a ressurection or raise, which believe it or not, isn't always an option so you end up losing between 2 and 3 levels. I believe the current lose for "respawning" is…40%? And if that was lowered from some original percentage, I'm afraid of what it use to be. lol
I just want true res back. :P
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Don't use crossbows when you don't have the HP/AC to take a few hits and don't be cheap with consumables, and when I mean don't be cheap, I mean sometimes having that invisibility and cure serious wand is much more important than getting that enchanted sword, using them on your party as well. If you want to maintain levels, that is.
Respawn is pretty harsh at higher levels, but as you progress it becomes easier to gain large amounts of gold on quests if you're not a frontliner, so you tend to start walking around with enough money for a ressurection at that point, and frankly, a 15% penalty is pretty reasonable.
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Don't respawn shrugs
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Don't use crossbows when you don't have the HP/AC to take a few hits and don't be cheap with consumables, and when I mean don't be cheap, I mean sometimes having that invisibility and cure serious wand is much more important than getting that enchanted sword, using them on your party as well. If you want to maintain levels, that is.
Respawn is pretty harsh at higher levels, but as you progress it becomes easier to gain large amounts of gold on quests if you're not a frontliner, so you tend to start walking around with enough money for a ressurection at that point, and frankly, a 15% penalty is pretty reasonable.
At higher level's any melle using any potion will most likely die from AoO. This is true since a melle shouldn't need to use any potions in the first place unless he's getting his butt kicked bad enough that he can't wait to heal after the fight. Wands however are allright, but only for people who can UmD. Also, I have yet to see a single cleric use any healing spell on a PC in the middle of a fight. Weird huh?
Also, Gmork, you're such a smartass. But what you said is true. >_>
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If you are a Melee fighter, look for support. You should be able to keep swinging your club and rely on trusted companions who focus on you, not the enemy. And then look after those trusted companions!
I've often played support characters who carry healing wands and heal up the front line, sometimes at the expense of AoE hits that have killed my character. However, I'm growing a little tired of doing so, since even healing someone back from unconciousness rarely brings any RP or monetary recompence from the expense of buying the wands. Fighters seem to think that this healing is free to them and their right! It isn't a right. It costs coin and it would be nice for some RP value even if the fighter is too poor to reward those who keep them alive.
The other thing I hate is when I've failed to heal someone and I get compaints from the fugue that the character who died should have had someone heal him before he died. Hmm, "Pot - Kettle - Black" springs to mind when I wrote this!
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I've often played support characters who carry healing wands and heal up the front line, sometimes at the expense of AoE hits that have killed my character. However, I'm growing a little tired of doing so, since even healing someone back from unconciousness rarely brings any RP or monetary recompence from the expense of buying the wands. Fighters seem to think that this healing is free to them and their right! It isn't a right. It costs coin and it would be nice for some RP value even if the fighter is too poor to reward those who keep them alive.
Dragging the topic away from its intent for a moment: While I agree that RP should at least be provided as compensation, keep in mind that without that front line you're not going to get far (under most circumstances) with just support characters. Not to mention that the ones on the front are most likely using far more consumables than you. So is it their right? Nah, but I sure appreciate it if I'm the one burning through potions while everyone else sits back in a safe zone and shoots arrows. If I don't get it, my character has a pretty valid reason not to try to help the others if things go bad. And from it he knows who he can rely on and who he can't.
Back on topic: I'm actually in the camp that doesn't mind the death penalty. It would be boring as hell if everyone was levul tin, and bum rushed everything because they knew death didn't mean much.
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The other thing I hate is when I've failed to heal someone and I get compaints from the fugue that the character who died should have had someone heal him before he died. Hmm, "Pot - Kettle - Black" springs to mind when I wrote this!
To respond to this: If you're character wouldn't do it, don't do it. If Tank Character didn't offer some sort of compensation or "Thank you" that is satisfactory, don't heal them.
And, if their player is sending you tells whining about it, screen that and ship it right off to the DMs. The game and the server are meant to be fun, when people get frustrated, they should take a step back and realize it's a game. If they take it upon themselves to bitch at other players for something, then they need to be reminded, harshly or otherwise, that playing here is a privilege, not a right. Diminishing other people's fun over OOC expectations and disappointment is stupid.
Shit happens, but please keep your e-tempers at a minimum. I've gotten plenty of tells myself when their characters die, even though our characters are standing right next to each other in the fugue. If you get that pissed over a game, no matter how much time/effort you have invested, you should probably seek a less upsetting outlet for your energies.
Don't bother nice people like Lamancha!
:)As far as the death penalty goes, I'm fine with it. I've played here through numerous eras, so to speak, even when the average level was higher and I still have yet to get a character above level 8. Does that mean my characters weren't influential? Well I would argue that they weren't/aren't, but still! Have fun, take the bad with the good and keep playing. People need to do less undie-bundling.
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keep in mind that without that front line you're not going to get far (under most circumstances) with just support characters. Not to mention that the ones on the front are most likely using far more consumables than you. So is it their right? Nah, but I sure appreciate it if I'm the one burning through potions while everyone else sits back in a safe zone and shoots arrows. If I don't get it, my character has a pretty valid reason not to try to help the others if things go bad. And from it he knows who he can rely on and who he can't.
Agreed, emergency healing during combat is one of the primary roles of support characters since its not always possible to drink a potion when 4 things are hitting you with axes, Thankfully in my experience most parties ive been in know this and understand that if the frontline were to fall they would see just how effective a crossbow is to a line of charging ogres.
Back on topic: I'm actually in the camp that doesn't mind the death penalty. It would be boring as hell if everyone was levul tin, and bum rushed everything because they knew death didn't mean much.
I agree wiith this too. an important part of it is knowing when to fight and when to gtfo and take a healing potion and go back for more.
If im travelling anywhere I try to ensure that I have adequate supplies and if I see an encounter I have doubts about I wont hesitate to turn back, make a sending and go and kill them with some other players.
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First thing that comes to mind when I think about comparing CoA to any other RPG or cRPG is the horrendous death-penalty.
But, you know what? It works. It's always frustrating to the point of wanting to end a character when it happens, but taking a step back to look on things, you just have to focus on the aspects of your character that don't rely on levels to figure out a reason to, at least, respawn and grab your gear before logging off.
Otherwise it would be even more resoundingly a case of "the rich get richer".
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@Swifty:
At higher level's any melle using any potion will most likely die from AoO. This is true since a melle shouldn't need to use any potions in the first place unless he's getting his butt kicked bad enough that he can't wait to heal after the fight. Wands however are allright, but only for people who can UmD. Also, I have yet to see a single cleric use any healing spell on a PC in the middle of a fight. Weird huh?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
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@Kathrine:
Why the hell is the death penalty so damn crippling?
It's death. Its normally more than crippling, usually it involves never being alive again.
So the penalty actually isn't too bad.
This answer made my day and this thread. This has been discussed over and over and over and over again, we've already revamped the death penalty once to be kinder.
Respawning is there mostly there for newer characters anyway.
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You know, someone could always buy the ressurection rod that any class can use.
For the low low price of 40,000+Coins you too can bring back ten people from the dead! Even though that's over double the price of a normal ressurection, and the wand itself casts ressurection and not true ressurection…think of all of the time you'll save not having to walk all the way back to a temple!
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Except for Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey, death is not your friend. It's meant to be crippling, don't do it.