Nerf because it -could- be abused, or free creativity?
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Could just be me (hence a general discussion topic) but it seems like a few things may be getting 'nerfed' for want of a better word, simply because it is possible someone could abuse it, if they tried.
I'm personally of the opinion that sometimes thes nerfs may actually limit the options of players who wouldn't abuse these things, for the sake of making it harder for abusers to ….abuse.
Everything can be abused if you try hard enough.
I would think it better to have more options open, than to limit them.
I'd think the people who abuse things would eb better off somewhere else, and likely dont add much to the server, at least, not much of what the players here might want. I'd think it would be the abusers that would be removed, rather than options.
Please, please. Dont go into the specifics of this example, there was plenty of that in another thread.
The new looting syztem is awesome. But If implemented identically to subdual, will limit pvp options.
Seems like disarm/imp disarm was recently changed so that stealing a weapon is no longer possible with it.
These are two recent examples. I can personally see how un-nerfed these could be used to create fun conflicts.
I can also see how abusers could annoy people with them.
What do people think?
Nerf to stop abusers, or keep options open for roleplayers?
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If you're going to nerf everything because it CAN be abused by being an ooc asshole, this is going to be one boring server.
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Seems like disarm/imp disarm was recently changed so that stealing a weapon is no longer possible with it.
PM sent explaining this for you.
The new loot system is fine if only effects death.
As to the rest of the nerfs some made sense some don't but on the whole they are made with the best intensions dosent always work well in the long run but the thought was there.
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I know what you mean and would prefer if it were possible to just remove the abusers (if talking to them to make them realize their mistake fails), that would be too much work in practice: monitoring, (eventually) banning (and rebanning) abusers, fix issues caused, reimburse victims, deal with victims you can't reimburse, deal with fallout of victims raging out, etc. etc.
So things are 'nerfed' instead, it may suck, but it's the best possible, workable solution :(
However, between mature (enough) players, you can of course re-implement the features you want by mutual agreement. For example (I'll re-use your specific examples):
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On a successful disarm, the disarmee takes a moment to drop the weapon and lets the disarmer pick it up. If not practical, they at least agree not to re-arm themselves.
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put .pvp to sparring, and once you go down, you indicate being out of the fight, e.g. by sitting down, or moving to some safe spot (maybe heal up a little to avoid being picked off by opportunists). Everyone can also take a moment to barter with the 'dead guy' to get their sword, that healnig wand etc. After the battle is resolved, you go through the inventory together properly. If desired, you can then switch to full-damage and kill them 'for real'.
With reasonably serious people, these kind of agreements should not be too hard to make, and they wouldn't have to break immersion too much. With unreasonable people.. Well, you probably shouldn't want to PVP with them anyway, as it will just lead to grief.
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As far as I know, those nerfed things that could be used for roleplay can still be done… A good roleplayer can and will enable something for you if you ask them.
For example lets say I wanted to loot something off a player but didn't have time to search through the logs in his inventory for its code, I could just pm the player and say "hey my char knows you have it and is planning on looting that and only that, is that alright with you?"
In which case after you beat down the guy you can just barter the item and gtfo...
Same thing with disarm, explain your intent.
Though I do agree anything can be abused so its silly to try and nerf all things abusable.
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Alot of good things.
There is but one fault with abovementioned. People are in general jerks, and people dislike losing.
I recently adventured out with my new werewolf. During the quest, some events happened to make me turn. So I subdued all around me. A few fled, but most went down.
However, because I was only lvl 2, and no dm was in sight, they kept getting back up. Experienced, veteran players, with at minimum two years + on the server, kept gettign back up, 3, 4, 5 times. Because they were so many, I couldnt keep them down forever, and I was eventually beaten.
In my time here, 8 years, I have had alot of PvP. And my sad experience is, unless I go to PVP FULL, they keep getting back up. You would be amazed at how many of the most trusted and experienced roleplayers on this server, will do just about anything to escape death.
Why? Because people like to win.
I personally like the idea of this death system, if the intention is to avoid people losing items due to crashes and glitches. However, if it is to avoid and restrict PvP even further, then I see it was going WAY too far.
People have become way too attached to their loot. If it is because the dms do not want loot to fall into the wrong hands, they can non drop it. But with subdual, it is going way too far in a direction which I cannot comprehend.
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Luteijn and paradox:
Thats all well and good, but when i was starting to get to grips with the server, i wouldnt have even thought losing an item or any gold could possibly, in any way, lead to any kind of fun. I was proven wrong by some very good roleplayers who had access to various mechanical opportunities,
How are the new players going to get into things and learn to roll with the punches if every single punch is pulled?
Olouth: thanks for your point of view, some good points in there, things i Agree with in fact. But please dont go into detail on the loot system in particular. The system has been talked about on another thread in detail, try and be more general, please, if you can.
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The loot system change was to avoid people losing their stuff to crashes.
The disarm change I don't think is at all recent and may not even be intentional.
In general we don't allow things that are blatantly abusable e.g. Teleport to location and not teleport to creature (Which is only very minorly abusable)
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Loot system was a very bad example as its not even implemented on subdual. Wish i never brought it up.
Was more an example of potential changes, the whole thread is about ethos, not specific things anyway.
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If you can be more specific, it would help.
The general idea is fine, but is moot if there hasn't been a change that has actually done this.
The loot system is mainly for death/crash/OOC issues, not stifling roleplay.
If you have a problem,
- Be specific about it's nature
- List out your issues.
That'd be much more helpful for us to evaluate.
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The ethos of the DMs is to nerf stuff that is considered unbalancing, rather than stuff that could be abused, if someone was enough of a jerk.
We can always ban jerks, but we cannot ban 30 clerics because a spell is just too powerful.
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@The:
The ethos of the DMs is to nerf stuff that is considered unbalancing, rather than stuff that could be abused, if someone was enough of a jerk.
We can always ban jerks, but we cannot ban 30 clerics because a spell is just too powerful.
You got something against clerics Abby?
[shakes fist at]
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I said bad example!
It's more a future direction thread, perhaps should have been in v5 discussion, dunno, though i've stopped looking in that forum now.
It would be good to know if disarm issue is intentional or not, if it is, that would be an issue. When I tested that out, I was a bit miffed, if thats some kinda bug, cool, when I saw that, then thought about the potential of .loot on being applied to subdual in its current format, I got a lil worried.
Anything that uses mechanics to discourage, or worse, stop, theft, worries me. Anything that does the same for PVP in general worries me further. Something I love about the server is that you could be killed and lose everything to an enemy, but generalky, you dont. If full looting was allowed on something like WoW, it would be a noob slaying festival, fact it works here is a testament to the player/dm base.
currently (i know its not finished) if i was going to kill a character, and planned to rob them to some extent, i'd subdue them first, till thier bag dropped (though i used the system and couldnt be looted at all in subdual the other day, separate issue) then once id used that system, id use FD. But as olouth said, people can get up (and are allowed to)
I think the whole subdual system nedds changing some personally, but this is becomming a suggestion when it was more a discussion of how people would like to see the general ethos of the servef progress.
I'd like to see subdual apply penalties as soon as someone hits zero hp. -4 temporary to all stats (removing spells) AB/Ac decrease, speed reduction. And a long state of lying on the floor.
Some of this is implemented, but seems to have several stages. The stages are fine to an extent, but i really think the stages should be modes. Subdual should put someone out of the fight entirely, if it doesnt, it really does encourage FD. Beatdown has no real purpose currently, and would be better if it was the first stage of subdual. Knocked to the floor winded for a bit of time, more than sparring mode, less than subdual, and less detrimental effects.
Subdual should subdue.
When you beat someone, you should have every option available looting wise.
Means of taking items from people should not be limited to if you can take them to zero HP.
Disarm/skill focus PP should be potential candidates, with pickpocket using a system similar to the new .loot on system. This allows lower levels os power to still be a potentisl problem, and doesnt encourage power building so you can take people to zero HP and take X item from them for Y reason.
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I may sound like a HUGE ass for saying this…
But unless you can rob people, there will NEVER be any fear of death. I have only once in the last 2 years or so, been treated kindly with OOC when I showed OOC courtesy. Because of it, Akdul still lives and i have never regretted it.
Anyhow, that aside, I hope this new system will result in less need for direct supervision at every pvp encounter.
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"This new system" has nothing to do with subdual.
No one has specifically "Nerfed" Disarm, whatever Gimpatronic might thingk.
Don't get worried by the fear of something that has not even been proposed, or considered.
There is no desire from the DM team to make CoA a Carebear server.
There are no conspiricies except ones to make sure Apep never "wins"
All posts by Gimpatronic are to be ignored.
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Don't worry bable, there is a trained staff of tro-er players that are dedicating much needed time and pwning to make sure certain aspects of this server are not OVERLY OP.
Like cat familiars.
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My worries are quelled.
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Like cat cam familiars.
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the Devs have to nerf them cats