Reagents
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I'm not pleased with the way reagents have turned into an 'economy' all their own. The original idea was this would be a way for players to develop personal reasons to explore and work toward long term goals.
Instead, they seem to be something people find to hold onto and sell to the highest bidder who needs them and a method some people think should be utilized to resolve every DM plot (which was never their purpose).
I'd like some feedback on the system so we can begin adjusting it to more closely achieve the goal for which it was first developed. Giving players tools to pursue personal goals, quests, and adventures rather than a resource to farm.
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I'm not entirely sure where the regeants are, but from my knowledge, it seems the level range to aquire them are very vast. There's a few quests that give certain regeants, but once you reach a certain level, you cannot quest to get those regeants anymore. In a sense, you -must- buy certain regeants once you get to a certain level as they seem to be in high supply.
On the other side, some regeants are -extremly- dangerous to get, hidden in some of the more dangerous areas where unless you can hide or are a higher level, you would have no chance of aquiring.
Perhaps somehow making all of the regeants accessable to all levels would help this?
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They are accessible to all levels actually, people just 'farm' the known areas. What I may need to do, is greatly decrease the odds of finding them in those areas so people are forced to explore more.
Another idea I had was requiring players to find certain clues and hints on where to seek the items and unless you've found the clues, you can never actually 'find' the item. So that finding them was as simple as going to the once place you know where mistletoe are spawned, but a case of finding out first where they spawn and then what special mystical tool you need to harvest them and what time to do so.
Rather like druids have to harvest mistletoe with a silver sickle on a full moon in mid-winter for it to be effective. You'ld have to discover all this IC from scripted events and explorations; and if you don't then you can never find the finished product.
But, that wouldn't stop people selling it once they do find it.
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Economy is nothing but a case of supply and demand. You have any item which can be found and that people want and you will soon develop an economy based around it. Hence why when you have PCs brewing potions, making wands, scribing scrolls … you'll always have an economy based around it.
The Reagent idea, sadly, turned quickly into what many thought it would. A way to solve pretty much any problem. Need a dragon killed? Do a ritual. Need to locate The Ubersword of Uberness? Do a ritual. Blood stain on your chainmail that just won't come out? Do a ritual.
PCs will always seek solutions to their problems. That's a demand.
There's only a certain number of ways a problem can be handled. That's supply.In the case of the current reagent system, it's supply that's more or less controlled by the PCs - the ones that go explore and quest get the reagents and so they have the market power. They can sell them or trade them - whatever they like. They are not found easily or without risk which is the way it should be. You don't find them killing bats near the market, instead you have to take pretty dangerous jaunts into places such as the Underdark.
This actually does get people out exploring which is what, so I'm led to believe, the DMs want. There is a demand out there so the PCs explore to find the supply. That simply can not be changed. If the reagent system happened to be dumped, the nature/shape of the supply changes not the demand for it. The way the supply can be obtained is the only other factor that can be changed - place it in more random locations (That Factory Quest is really nothing but a reagent run for some folk, as an example), make them more common, make them rarer ... these things can be changed by the demand for supply really can't.
As an example, if the current system happened to be removed and we resort back to what we had then the demand would be for DM attention to solve plots. The demand exists, just the nature of supply changes. So that would depend on whether or not the DMs wish to take a more direct hand in matters rather than stepping back and letting PCs hunt for reagents.
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so people are forced to explore more.
On a bit of a side issue, exploration is great in general. I've been exploring the Haunted Halls, Underdark and other areas with some groups and often it is fun.
But one thing that turns more than a few people off exploring is certain type of encounters, some of which I have encountered first hand.
Sometimes a group can be out and a DM spawns something really challenging - all fine and good. But then the matter is left at that - resources are consumed and the encounter ends up being expensive but nothing is gained in return. There are no plot hooks or clues, no encouraging words from a NPC, no XP for conquering the problem or anything of the kind.
Intended or not, such encounters tend to come across as the DM feeling bored and spawning some random creatures for the sake of it. Such is not fun for the players involved.No group wants to go out exploring and looking about the wilds if it is just going to end up consuming precious resources. It has to be worthwhile - and no, I am not referring to just loot and xp. A clue about a plot, a NPC saying "well done, lads! I owe you one!" or just some feedback would be more than enough.
So exploring for the sake of mapping or finding resources or simply looking for buried treasure is fantastic. But no one is going to do it if it is not worthwhile.
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I will just avoid you and any group you're exploring with, haljordan.
Not every interaction needs to involve a plot point.
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Moloch, I'm not trying to be a bummer on this one. I remember I tried to do something reagent like with Neathon Amounar just before you came out with the idea, and it seemed pretty good. I think the problem, though is that we have to realistically look at what it takes to cause "change" to occur on the server and realize it simply cannot be done without a DM AND a player working in consort.
The only thing I can suggest (and I'm not even sure this is worth a grain of shit) is the following:
- Return to the idea that if players want something special, they need to Apply for it.
- Make these applications easy; but make players realize that even if they do all the steps, the end result may not turn out quite like they wanted it.
- As part of the application, the character should have a series of goals they forsee (as a PLAYER) that their character should have to reach to get what he wants.
3b) If need be, counter offer with the player, saying you'll take the application, but you want them to do a, d, e, and f, instead of the player proposition of a, b, and c. - Manipulate the module to spawn a few things unique to the application. Once they've been found and made their way to the player, remove them from the module. Surplus items will be deemed value-less and should be trash canned. Sorry!
- Include whatever DM interaction is necessary along the way, but encourage players to get out there and look for their application specific crap by themselves.
The minuses are obvious: It's more DM intensive. There are finite numbers of "unique objects" you can have floating around, meaning there are finite numbers of "active application goals" that can be open at a time. The system may still have some lazy players that simply advertise for others to go do their work for them (but isn't this, at least, accomplishing our goal of getting others involves).
Basically, I guess, you can boil it down to the concept of having unique spawn items/reagents for unique goals/applications. No more, "I'm Mugskwat and want make a super sword. I already found three reagents. Here, DM, do it for me, PLZ!"
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Why must all "rewards" come in the form of loot and experience? I've yet to have a single DM encounter where I didn't have loads of fun, no matter if I lost tons more resources than I made.
Also, I don't think I've seen folks running around gathering hedge reagents just for the sake of selling them for gold.
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May I have some radical ideas?
People do hedge magic rituals because they work. You can't blame them.
I speak against myself, but make it less reliable! They won't sell that well, let me assure you! :D
I don't know if it already works this way. Sorry, if it does.
Of course, people has worked hard for the ritual, and they deserve something, make it not a complete fail, but something they can roll with.. something they can bring to their advantage, again, with hard work. Make it a way so it is enjoyable for everyone!People refrain from doing many things they could do, and would serve as an advantage only because of RP reasons. Red Moon hunters refuse to quest with my wizard even when the server has 4 players online. People give me magical scrolls for 20 coins just because they play a dumb orc.
I feel hedge magic a bit poorly (I mean no offense, I understand why you put it in) established ICwise. I don't know how should my wizard treat it. It is somewhat away from normal magic, and the relation is unclear. Magic is maintained by Mystra, but how does hedge magic work?
Put something in what can make people hate hedge magic, so people can start to counteract these rituals.Or do something else, so we know more about hedge magic. I don't know.. I just feel it's a bit too far away from the concept of magic in Faerun.
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hope it made sense… it's very late here, and I'm tired. :)
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The problem with farming regeants, is that they are in specific locations. And some are on quest so not everyone can get to them unless they hire someone in the lvl range of the quest to get it for them (which is what Cog did a lot when they needed certain metals. we hired folks to go on a quest, payed them extra if they found anything)
maybe have them spawn more randomly in places logical for them. Like the metals well, they out to spawn in caves. That means underdark, the gazilion caves and underground places around the module. That's a lot i do think. Umberlee tears? Near, in or under a body of water. Plenty of those around too. Heck maybe we could fish them out! Or fish out something that leads up to one.
It is also up to the player base to say, we are not buying, we are going to go look for our own. Those with regeants could bribe their way into the affaires of those who needs the regeants instead. Creat some conflict and intrigue. I dont know…
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aronFF,
Hedge magic is explained IC through a tome on the subject. It actually is based on a canon form of magic in the Forgotten Realms and is notoriously unstable. Most the NPCs in the Wizard's Guild heavily frown on its use because it is unreliable and the results will vary greatly in what happens–ooc--the results of how successful you are are typically linked to how much fun you made it for other players and DMs to watch your ritual and explorations unfold.
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I admit that I'm part of a guilty party. I'm collecting about ten regeants right now to hopefully craft something later.
However, a way to maybe help minimize the selling and buying of regeants…perhaps, there's a way to moniter the regeants? So that only people who are actually going to use the regeants, and tell the DM's how they're going to use them, get them. It'll make it so people can't just hold onto them, they have to activly be searching for them in order to complete a certain goal or something.
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Hal, your explanation on supply and demand is true. Your other post is silly. In scripted quests, they get boring, so we sometimes change it up a bit to keep it different if nothing else. I would say the rarer occasion would be for the DM to interact with the party in some other way on scripted quests, leaving that for DM faction NPC interaction, plots, etc…
Farming regeants is no differnt than farming ore when smithing was so profitable, pending your supply of ore.
I'd say the regeants thing tied to hedge magic is awesomesauce, but if it becomes more of a marketing scheme than hedge magic, toss it. You are going to get some of both, the percentage is what's important to balance.
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@HarryMcScary:
I will just avoid you and any group you're exploring with, haljordan.
Not every interaction needs to involve a plot point.Nor did I say that it had to. I had thought I had made that clear.
All I said is that some sort of interaction rather than the spawning of monsters would get people exploring more. It does not have to do with plots. It does not need to be XP. It does not need to be loot. It just has to involve something more than the spawning of creatures.Even possessing some of the creatures and talking as that creature is fantastic. As an example, recently a DM came and spiced a Notebook Quest in a pretty large way and we had multiple deaths and used a lot of resources. But the DM who did it made it fun by interacting with the players - he possessed the spawned creatures and spoke as those creatures. If he had not taken that relatively simple step then it would have not been nearly as fun for the players involved.
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In scripted quests, they get boring, so we sometimes change it up a bit to keep it different if nothing else. I would say the rarer occasion would be for the DM to interact with the party in some other way on scripted quests, leaving that for DM faction NPC interaction, plots, etc…
If I did not make myself clear then I apologise.
Changing around scripted quests is great. It does tend to keep things fresh and people on their toes.But if the DM team wishes to encourage people to explore (which is a bit different from scripted quests) then they need to make encounters for explorers interesting and in someway rewarding. Mindless spawns of monsters without anything else is usually not fun for players. Possess the monsters and interact with the PCs - even something as an Orc yelling out a battlecry to his foul orc god as he charges in, or shouting threats at the PCs.
Not plot related. No loot. No XP involved. But it makes the setting seem more alive - and when the setting seems more alive, it is more fun for players.That will encourage people to get out and explore to a great extent.
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I've returned from a long break from before this system was implemented. As some as my old character I spent long times in the underdark and such places and basically never found anything of any worth. While I've only found 1 hedge reageant since I;ve been back I think that it is very awesome that you can find cool plotty sorts of things by exploring with no DM necessary. Very awesome.
As for selling items -what is the problem:
I can think of three potential probelms:
1. Characters who want to do something through hedge magic just buy their way to it instead of pursuing the exploration/adventure aspect of getting the reagents themselves.
2. Hedge magic plots being resloved instantly by buying the reagents.
3. Characters 'farming' reagents.
Are these problems? I'm honsetly asking what the DM's/player base thinks.
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If people sell their reagents for gold, it means that other people can actually "plot" solely through questing.
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But if the DM team wishes to encourage people to explore (which is a bit different from scripted quests) then they need to make encounters for explorers interesting and in someway rewarding. Mindless spawns of monsters without anything else is usually not fun for players. Possess the monsters and interact with the PCs - even something as an Orc yelling out a battlecry to his foul orc god as he charges in, or shouting threats at the PCs.
Not plot related. No loot. No XP involved. But it makes the setting seem more alive - and when the setting seems more alive, it is more fun for players.That will encourage people to get out and explore to a great extent.
You'd be surprised how often I log in, set up an event and just wait to see if anyone goes anywhere interesting with a group of people to spring it on. Long story short; we love to reward people we see out actively doing things other than questing with some specific purpose in mind, through interesting encounters, loot, experience, interactions with NPCs, ect.
Unfortunitely though, we can't be around all the time, which is a big part of why we implimented the Hedge Magic system, as a way of rewarding people who go out with a common goal and helping them further that goal without needing constant DM supervision.
Because we can't be around all the time to make explorations more interesting and rewarding we hope to leave it up to the players involved to make the interactions something interesting and memorable and overall rewarding for the players who participate. In the end, if you get lucky, you just might end up with a Hedge Magic reagent which will be used toward benefitting your entire network of allies/factionmates who you've been calling upon to help find it (hopefully).
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Agreed. DMs are not omnipresent and no one can, for an instant, imagine they are.
I am referring to, just for the sake of clarity, some experiences I have had first hand (and I know others have as well) of DM created encounters they have had while exploring. Encounters which have, if anything, turned them off from exploring because there was nothing but interaction-less spawning of hostile creatures.
This does not encourage exploration. If anything, it turns people from it.
Just to be clear; I am not referring to the levels/numbers of interactions while exploring. I am referring to some of the encounters that have been experienced which have turned people away from exploration.
The Reagent system has been a huge success in at least one regard; it certainly has gotten people out of the city more and into areas less travelled. This is a great thing!