Overplotting and recruiting people
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I design all of my characters to be supporting characters. In character accolades and recognition for contributions made by these characters are few and far between, but I like to think they help keep the wheels of the plot train turning.
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It frustrates me when people completely misunderstand the nature of our applications process or goals the way yeahchris did. I don't know how many times I hear the same old lines about them, usually from people who haven't managed to really shake things up using whatever formula they're using. Ask those who have- their characters are generally not "slavishly dedicated to a few goals decided before character creation" but are instead vibrant characters who actually go out and try to do something. In general, being a do-nothing character with do-nothing goals will mean that you … do-nothing. I'm not going to go out of my way to make sure you get rewarded for doing nothing.
Your inability to shake things up doesn't mean it never works- it just means it doesn't work for you for whatever reason. If you don't like playing characters with goals, why not stop writing applications or playing faction characters and do something you actually enjoy and feel productive doing?
I don't think you read beyond to other posts before editing yours, either. Just a few inches from where you say "that would be unlikely to happen here" another player says "something similar happened here". There are plenty of examples other than Harsil's that make your complaint ring hollow.
EDIT: I edited this thinking it sounded too harsh. I moved a word or two around and then realized that it does say pretty much what I mean it to say.
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I'm not sure I follow.
Basically you complain about sudden changes that involve few people and wonder why others should care, and then you make an example where you, being absolutely not involved, are given the chance to decide out of the blue the destiny of a lot of people.
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@Foba:
I'm not sure I follow.
Basically you complain about sudden changes that involve few people and wonder why others should care, and then you make an example where you, being absolutely not involved, are given the chance to decide out of the blue the destiny of a lot of people.
Well, there were a few differences: In the story I told I was a PC and the changes and reactions were from other PCs who knew me. In the CoA example, the reactions were primarily from NPCs and factions while the majority of player characters remained relatively uninvolved with the situation.
My story was, of course, a simplified version of what happened. There were other events which foreshadowed and built up to it. Desperate pleas to his friends to become deserters; etc, all without the actual decision being a premeditated thing.
@HarryMcScary:
I don't think you read beyond to other posts before editing yours, either. Just a few inches from where you say "that would be unlikely to happen here" another player says "something similar happened here". There are plenty of examples other than Harsil's that make your complaint ring hollow.
Correct. I do not edit posts to change their content. I do so to fix grammatical errors and make phrasing more clear. It would be confusing if I were to change the ideas in a post right before a post which attempts to address them.
As far as what came after, I do not think Harsil's example is particularly equivalent to my mini-story. The point of my story was that a character was able to meaningfully contribute to a much larger story without doing so in an obvious manner. I did not have to stand on the edge of a cursed rift yelling, "Fuck you, rift! I will close you!" in order to get the plot wheels turning. I did not have to make repeated attempts to contact the enemy and express my willingness to betray my allies (or even have intentions to). I did not have to organize parties into contrived DM unsupported excursions based around my eventual betrayal (though I did so for other reasons). All I did was have a few conversations with my PC's friends and allies, encouraging them to flee, and express a few times the belief that he didn't really care whether the town fell so long as they all made it out ok.
In other words, the DM did not predicate my PCs involvement with a plot based upon an arbitrary checklist of things I must do before being given the so-called "reward" of being involved with a plot. I was not required to collect items, put up bulletin posts, or spend inordinate amount of my free time doing things that are not themselves fun. Rather, he considered my PC's personality, his position within the relevant faction, his relationship to the game world; he noted that I had made close friends within the faction and that my betrayal would very much influence their characters perspectives. This is what made him decide it would make for an interesting story; and the fact that it was an interesting story which would involve its participants in a personal way is what made him run the plot.
Lastly, if animating the game world for players and trying to figure out ways to involve players has become a "reward" rather than "what DMs do" then you have been doing this too long.
@HarryMcScary:
Your inability to shake things up doesn't mean it never works- it just means it doesn't work for you for whatever reason. If you don't like playing characters with goals, why not stop writing applications or playing faction characters and do something you actually enjoy and feel productive doing?
Well, I'll ignore the fact that this comment is the sort of standard patronizing reply that I've come to expect whenever someone voices their opinion on these sort of issues and decline to rush and defend myself by listing PCs that I've played who I think made a ruckus in their time, and simply comment on the fact that it doesn't really have anything to do with what I said.
I never said that server changing goals do not come to fruition. What I did say is that they do not come to fruition very often, and, more importantly, they do not involve nearly as much of the playerbase as is commonly believed. Too much emphasis is placed upon vast, nefarious plots which have little or nothing to do with those drawn into them. The plots themselves that gain DM support are usually significantly biased towards those intended to stir up conflict between factions or vague NPC demographics which most PCs are not a part of. This works great for factions; but everyone else is sorta left with this weird, impersonal OOC ultimatum that they should involve themselves with these things because they're the only thing with the official stamp of approval, despite their character's lack of coherent motivation to do so.
I am not a weird, shrill, selfish whiner for suggesting that DMs ought to attempt to come up with some plot hooks which are personally relevant to the PCs they are given to (even if their interests are less contentious than blowing up an embassy), rather than having them placed into a chest and dropped randomly into a new area, or loaded into a cannon and fired as grapeshot towards the masses, or given only to those who yell the loudest about their intentions, or given only to those promise to make more NPCs angry than anyone else.
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Well i kind of agree with yeahchris and lamancha The big mega plots that you hear screamed about by X faction that has no real intrest to my none faction character is boring to me and i try my best to avoid getting involved with them.Meeting characters ingame and interacting with them helps your character to grow by extension you then become intrested in helping them as lamancha said,other than that as a casual player the server seems to randomly change every few weeks and it's gotten to the point where i don't even bother logging on as everything has changed but no one really knows why other than four characters that were involved.
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From what I've read much of this conversation has turned into long winded rants to say simple two to three sentance points, so to keep things simple I'll write this next post in very short and easy to read format.
I'm sorry if this doesn't apply to everything that's being said but as far as I'm concerned this says everything that needs to be said on the topic;
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Furthermore, these sorts of far-reaching goals that are invented before character creation (particularly for application characters) make it so that you're contractually obligated to have all of your in game actions generally trend towards fulfilling a handful of goals. Your characters thoughts, opinions, and interests are far less malleable than another's might be, because they have to be in order to stick with it long enough to get anything done. In other words, the system spawns a lot of characters that are always doing pretty much the same thing until their ambitions either finally bear fruit and a vague political conflict occurs, or the player grows frustrated and stops playing the PC.
This is specifically what I was responding to. The same age-old complaint that coming up with goals is bad because it makes a character a slave to the goals, less adaptable, and less vibrant than characters who don't have goals. It's a ridiculous assertion because the most interesting characters on the server have always been those with goals and innovative ways to go after those goals.
In other words, the DM did not predicate my PCs involvement with a plot based upon an arbitrary checklist of things I must do before being given the so-called "reward" of being involved with a plot. I was not required to collect items, put up bulletin posts, or spend inordinate amount of my free time doing things that are not themselves fun.
There's so much wrong with this that I'm not sure where to begin. First, being involved in a plot isn't some sort of reward- it's just something you choose to do. Oh, look- a tear in the planes. I might try to find out what's what. BOOM. I'M INVOLVED IN A PLOT. That took no DM involvement whatsoever.
I assume you're criticizing the setup of CoG (or the terrible hedge magic rush that everyone was involved in last year) with your checklist of items and posts comment. CoG's setup (and hedge magic, for that matter) is a system set up to give players an excuse or added motivation to go out and adventure. If all you can see it as is an arbitrary checklist for some kind of reward, then I'm not sure where your understanding of the system failed. It's not just you- a lot of people have the same mistaken notions of what those systems are set up for, and they really do just race to the win.
I'll finish up my comments on that section with another "if it's not fun, don't do it". Seriously.
Lastly, if animating the game world for players and trying to figure out ways to involve players has become a "reward" rather than "what DMs do" then you have been doing this too long.
Instead of answering this directly, let me post a definition:
Logistics is the management of the flow of goods, information and other resources, including energy and people, between the point of origin and the point of consumption in order to meet the requirements of consumers (frequently, and originally, military organizations). ... ```There are few DMs. There are many players. How should we figure out who to spend our time with? Random people for no reason whatsoever? I do that with random quests. I think everyone does that with random quests. The really long-term commitment of a plot? Why would a DM commit time and energy to help push a story for a character whose player is unwilling to commit the same time and energy? I think this issue of logistics really addresses the rest of your post, too. I will spend my limited time in-game doing things that are fun with people who I have fun playing with. Lately for me that's been whatever group has been outside of the city exploring. For a DM who's investing a dozen or more hours a week into a plot, that's going to be whatever characters are also spending that much time in the plot. When I was involved in kicking Lyss' story into full gear there were about 10 PCs I interacted with regularly. They were the PCs who happened to be the most interested in that story and in everything that came along with it. I'm sure that Cam is doing the same thing with Greencastle. The players who want to explore those stories and have fun will be "rewarded" with the fun they desire because the DMs involved came up with the story for a reason. This is not a job. We volunteer to run this server. I'm rarely active these days and I still spend more time on this server than I do on any other hobby. I've put infinitely more hours into it as I have my graduate education, and I plan on continuing to do so as long as there are players to play with. I don't think you can find a player who can say in sincerity that I don't DM for the whole server, but I'm also not going to apologize when I say that my goal when I log into CoA is to have fun, and I will have fun by running events for players who I find entertaining. I follow the same advice I gave you: "if it's not fun, don't do it". Seriously.
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And Bang…that bout said it all. A character without goals can easily drift up to high levels, be one of the most powerful characters on the server, and no one will miss them when they are gone. Trust me, I just whitelighted my very high level character mostly because as I was sitting in the fugue, I was thinking who would miss her. The answer was only one person, and they've retired, so into the light she went.
Is pushing DM plots better than pushing for personal goals? Of course not, but it's somewhat easier to get caught up with others having the same agenda. Will your personal plot gather interest and possible dm involvement? Maybe yes, maybe no. So much will hinge on when you are on, when dm's are on, have you communicated to them what you are doing and so on. It is fairly certain that if you don't tell them, they won't know.
You don't have to have goals and plots to push and can have fun with others, be successful even. But, it's doubtful much attention will be paid to you, because there's nothing for a dm, or even other characters to grab onto. That is the function "personal plots" and goals serve. Giving others a way to sort of grab on to your character and a reason to interact with them in some fashion.
Dm plots are a different beast entirely. We most often see only the big things, the army of goblins or whatnot. The small stuff, is well, small. Only those few characters right there at the moment will see it, and then will be up to them to do something with it. They may or may not, and I can only imagine the disappointment to a dm when they drop hook after hook to someone, only to have them drop the ball as it were. I have done so myself, repeatedly, to the point where it's doubtful I will see a plot hook again.
Boils down to time, effort and fun. If it's fun to spend some time and effort with someone, I will. If it's not, then I'll do something else.
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Is pushing DM plots better than pushing for personal goals? Of course not, but it's somewhat easier to get caught up with others having the same agenda. Will your personal plot gather interest and possible dm involvement? Maybe yes, maybe no. So much will hinge on when you are on, when dm's are on, have you communicated to them what you are doing and so on. It is fairly certain that if you don't tell them, they won't know.
A few months back I was practically begging players to tell me what their personal goals were so that I could run events for them. I had one or two do that (and those quests were very fun- the haunted family quests were some of my favorite ever), but the rest of the "scheduled Harry time" revolved around DM plots. Nobody had personal stories they wanted to push- or if they did, they couldn't find a way to make it fun for other people.
You don't have to have goals and plots to push and can have fun with others, be successful even. But, it's doubtful much attention will be paid to you, because there's nothing for a dm, or even other characters to grab onto. That is the function "personal plots" and goals serve. Giving others a way to sort of grab on to your character and a reason to interact with them in some fashion.
Some of my most fun time on the server was as a player running around with CorwinofBieber and a guy named Padfoot40 doing nothing but having fun on quests, trips to Immersea, and RPing around the mod. We were completely aimless and didn't change the server in any way, but we still had loads of fun. My character slowly drifted towards House Thond and his towards House DeSchurr, then we both started playing application characters with more of a focus on changing things. Both styles were fun.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing an aimless adventurer if that's what you have fun doing. Just don't expect to get plot hooks thrown at you for the big DM plots. If you want to get involved, do. If you don't, don't. Part of the original point of this thread was to complain about how many plots there are to get involved in. With such a number to pick and choose from, you're sure to find something you like.
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@Foba:
Too many leaders, not enough minions. End result, a thousand of plots and none of them ever gets pursued.
This is very true. I would say from past experience that being a minion was actually frowned upon for a while. I was berated once for not "having the initiative to start my own plots", when my character was clearly the minion of a much more important character with many plots.
My opinion is definitely that the server needs more minions and less leaders.
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Just play the game and have fun thats what its for. If what your doing isn't fun for you than like Harry said don't do it
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I'd say I agree whole-heartedly with the basic points made by Lizardman and yeahchris. It really needed to be said, and yeahchris even presupposed the exact responses that came from his/her comments.
I've felt for a long time that certain DMs and players tend to adopt a very flagrant, patronizing tone to their responses when a player's views are not inline with what they think. Of course, there is a sense they try to present themselves as open to different views and taking things with a grain of salt, but it doesn't go nearly far enough. To me, it's like a political party that glosses over the finite points of an issue just to ram home the party line. This is particularly true when it comes to plotting and playing styles.
Honestly, I think both sides have valid points and the exact truth lies somewhere in the middle. However, I am constantly sickened by the lack of respect and the desire to basically 1-up people (deny it all you like with stock platitudes) merely because they are expressing an opinion (particularly when it's as well thought out as yeahchris's first post in this thread).
The most common reciprocated comments usually involve a "you clearly just don't understand" slogan, which while perhaps true at times, is probably not true MOST of the time. It just seems like a convenient catch-all, used to umbrella the responder from returned criticism.
And that's really just it, there's a difference between being disparaging (either subtly, belligerently or unconsciously) and providing constructive criticism (or debate) to other players. Constructive arguments don't have a strong undercurrent of patronization. You think you've heard the same tired old rants before? There's two sides to that coin, let me tell you.
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Those well thought out opinions can usually be broken down into either
–-DMs need to cater to my playstyle because it's just as good as any other.
---I don't like the style that DMs happen to appreciate and feel that it cripples my ability to play a character.
---I have some complaint about a system which betrays my ignorance of both the intent and method of the system.Sometimes (but rarely) it's:
---I have a complaint about a problem that the DMs didn't think about when they put in a particular system.
---I have actually been mistreated by a DM.There are servers where the DMs really do bend over backwards to give players absolutely everything they want. I don't know how those DMs can have any fun, but maybe they just like it that way. I personally don't have enough time to spend on this game to do things that I find boring for players who will tell me how bad a DM I am for not giving them fun their way. When it comes to plotting and playing styles, my consistent answer is "do whatever you want, but if you're not going to put time and effort into <story <em="">x>, I'm not going to put time and effort into your character for <story <em="">x>".
And when people are obviously wrong about something (specifically the comments about applications, "goal checklists", plot to-do lists, and so on), I will tell them they're wrong. Perhaps it's the fact that they think those things that leads us to ignore them, which then leads to dissatisfaction.
What's funny here is that, unless players are cheating or engaging in unfair behavior, I don't tell them how to play their characters. I am, however, somehow patronizing or unfair when I object to players telling me how I should spend my time DMing.
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Some stuff about how on another server his rogue betrayed the city after a DM approached him with a plot hook and he took it and did awesome stuff. He ended by saying CoA just doesn't do that and said "I'm sorry; it just is."
No need to be sorry, but you're terribly, terribly wrong here.
We actually have already had characters who betrayed the city and their responsibilities. It wasn't prescripted.
We had a character who was out looking for some opportunity to make money from a known enemy of the city.
What happened is they had him light some foul green smoke bombs, these bombs signaled to the enemy that the city was ripe for attack. The attack happened.
Here's the key difference between what happened on the other server and ours:
On that one–DMs APPROACHED the player and initiated the idea that led to awesome stuff.
On ours--the player APPROACHED the DMs and initiated the idea that led to awesome stuff.
It is just our philosophy that ideas come from players. They need not be prescripted, but it is entirely fair of us to ask players asking for perks to provide us with some idea of what fun awesome things you'll be doing in game.
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I've basicly given up on it I've been playing CoA off and on since 2003, unless your in in the cliche of small people you don't get anything done. The basic is always same X Faction PC wants some X faction PC gets something everyone else gets swag and little more.
Now before you jump on me for "you brought back tyche so stfu" I didn't plan or plot that it just happened. secondly I am not going to prove such a cliche exist (and it does) because I've been over it a million times and no amount of proof seems to sway anyone.
but in short unless your the "in" crowd forget it, do as I do play as if DM's don't exist because unless you in the right crowd they don't.
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CG:
1). You brought back Tyche, so stfu.
2). Yes, there is a clique (not cliche-that's a different word). DMs never deny there is a clique on CoA of players who the DMs tend to enjoy playing with the most.
However, it is not a closed clique. That is the error some may make.
Anyone can jump in and get stuff done.
The key is:
1). Be fun.
2). Have an idea.
3). Discuss that idea with a DM who agrees it is fun.
4). Follow up on idea.That's how stuff gets done.
–--------Now for folks looking to just stir up player angst:
Folks with pessimistic attitudes, or do passive-aggressive "some DMs are mean, but no one but me is brave enough to say this", or who just give up are missing two points.
The first, is that DMs have limited time and so obviously, we'll play with people who we enjoy and whose play style mimics our own. As we recruit DMs from such people, this really is the culture of the server and what gets noticed and rewarded. We've tried to say this quite openly and honestly--without patronizing anyone. I'm sure some people have sensitive feelings though and have trouble handling this level of openness.
The second point, just enjoy CoA. Who cares if you get DM attention/plots if you're having fun interacting with other players. Go have fun and play the game. Just realize, and be groovy with this, DMs will reward behavior that rewards us with a good time. If you're going to go your own way and enjoy it, cool--if you're going to complain later about DMs because we don't notice your play style (even after we explained why) and accuse us of being negative or patronizing--well, dude, refer to Rule Number One "have fun or why be here?"
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I can attest, that I was once never ever noticed by DMs! I thought they all hated me! Or thought I smelt funny, or something….. I was sad about it...
Then! one day, another player (who was totally part of the clique, and annoyed me because they were unfairly getting stuff) took me on some adventures. I'd never even seen these parts of the module before. they gave me a few jobs to do, and a long term goal to try and achieve, told me to recruit people to the cause, and go find things/do stuff/ kill stuff.
I did it, and started to understand what was going on. I made up my own ideas one day, and sent them to a DM. To my utter surprise, A dm had seen it, read it, and..... found me in game! I then started sending DM tells while in game, just saying what I was doing, and every once in a while, a stupidly hard monster turned up, almost killed everyone, then loot fell out of it, or a plot hook fell from the sky.
the days of wonder began, and I never looked back.
I am being quite serious here. I used to feel the same way CG does. I used to think the DM's just had a few friends they liked, and didn't care about anyone else. then I figured some things out, and started enjoying the new way of playing the game, a lot. Moloch post on adventure and intrigue really helped me a lot, as it came at a time when I had been doing some of the things in that very post.
This is total truth.
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Some stuff about my random story and that I was horribly, horribly wrong.
Well, that's well and good, but I would still argue that my example made for a more interesting story. Like I said before, my character did not have to bluntly express his willingness to betray his friends, and his motivation was not as bland as gold.
A story about a man who commits a horrible act, unexpectedly, and out of the best of intentions is a more interesting story than one about a man who premeditates committing a horrible act for cash, and then does. If I had gone to the DM beforehand and simply stated OOCly "I want to betray X unexpectedly", filled out all appropriate paperwork, and subsequently been approached by an NPC for my opportunity to betray X, a lot of the magic would have been gone. Instead, the DM had been paying attention to the several subtle hints that I had dropped, and had responded accordingly.
Really, I'm kinda disappointed that so much focus has been paid to this one random story I made reference to. It wasn't a particularly important point.
The first, is that DMs have limited time and so obviously, we'll play with people who we enjoy and whose play style mimics our own. As we recruit DMs from such people, this really is the culture of the server and what gets noticed and rewarded.
You are, of course, free to do whatever you want, however the hell you want to, but I cannot see such a policy as being anything other than a one way ticket to Snoreville.
Much in the same way that I can say, definitively, that I would have long since given up reading had I sworn off all stories written by anyone other than Jules Verne at an early age, or decided that I would never read a book that was not a murder mystery. When everyone directing the narrative, which is essentially what DMs do, are all chosen from a relatively small pool of folks who all like stories with similar themes, tones, flow, characters, yadda yadda yadda, things quickly become very, very boring no matter how awesome the original story was.
Variety is the spice of life, as they say, and I cannot see how rewarding a variety of interests, ideas for stories, and playstyles would ultimately be anything other than a good thing for everyone. (Barring actively destructive playstyles, of course.)
You'd end up with a whole lot more characters who actually care about what's going on. As a DM there is really nothing more fun than having a bunch of characters who are actually interested in what you're doing. There are two ways of ensuring that this is the case: narrowing the PCs you typically interact with to those who enjoy the stories that you're currently telling, or learning to help tell multiple types of stories that cater not only to your own whims, but also to a variety of participants.
I've always found the second option to be WAY more fun. For everyone.
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I was really hoping this thread would just die, and have said all that I feel I ought to say. But I will say, finally, that I do not believe that malice of any kind is the root of these problems. Goodnight.
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@HarryMcScary:
Oh, look- a tear in the planes. I might try to find out what's what. BOOM. I'M INVOLVED IN A PLOT.[/quote]
This is a problem I've been having pretty much since I got here: how does one "find out what's what"? I could try the library, but it's a recent event, so it shouldn't be there in the first place, it would be trying to get a plot hook, which there aren't in the library, and finally 85% of library posts are 'nothing about it here' anyway.
You could try to ask an NPC, but then you'd need a DM to animate said PC, and, assuming there is one online, then you still need to harass a DM about it, and "There are few DMs. There are many players" and DMs prefer to play with those they know to have a similar playstyle. So even if there are DMs in-game at the time, they are likely busy playing with someone they like to play with. Or something else important.
You could try to ask PCs but in my personal experience my fellow PCs either know nothing, are reluctant to tell me anything, or are on my 'naughty' list. So they're not a viable option, either. Maybe that's just me.So, "Oh, look- a tear in the planes. I might try to find out what's what." Now what?
[quote="confusedgamer"]I've basicly given up on it I've been playing CoA off and on since 2003, unless your in in the cliche of small people you don't get anything done. The basic is always same X Faction PC wants some X faction PC gets something everyone else gets swag and little more.
I'd like to interject that, no, being in a faction does not guarantee success in anything. I have a plan but so far it's been an exercise in beating my head against walls blindly in the hope to suddenly hit a door.
I don't know, maybe I've not been assertive enough about this stuff, maybe my ideas are just lame and won't involve others, maybe I smell. But the core is: you can be in X Faction, want to do something, and not be able to entirely. If there is a 'clique', it is a separate one from factions.To add to that illustration, if we're going to discuss monetary rewards, the single most valuable item in my possession was one I lucked into by being at the right place at the right time, and I got it before I even applied to be in any faction.
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I don't really see cliques, I sorta just see people who tend to have and put more time and effort into the gameworld and are then subsequently rewarded by it, some people who don't and complain (Guilty), and some people who don't but don't complain. (Like me.)
And more things will be in the library if people wrote about them. Bards and stuff who like, create short works of literature would be nice. Like that halfling.
This game is taken too seriously.