Alts and Brewing: The Economy, Metagaming, and You
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I get why selling to just your team or Discounting to your team is an exploit. But I still do not feel that Alts selling consumables in general is all that bad. The real problem on the economy, besides the exploit, is that PC merchants have driven the market price down so low that it is hard to compete. That is not just alts, that is everyone. If all you did was sell potions for gold, you folks would starve. But as it is highly subsidized by adventuring, you do not have to worry about proper pricing. If something cost you 30 gold to make, a reasonable profit is not 4 coins. It is closer to 20. Shield potions make me dizzy. People sell them from 30-35 gold each NPCs sell them for about 60 if I recall (been so long since I bought one from a store) the average price should be 50. Beat the stores, still make a profit.
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I agree orin, pc crafter prices amaze me too.
I also agree alts existing and crafting for "people" is totally fine! It's when they are giving "thier team" the advantage when it breaks the metagaming rules we already have.
For me, all this is about, is reminding everyone that the metagaming rules relating to item transfer, also really to this, and any other way your characters can help your other characters (giving evidence /provoking crimes, creating crap for your other characters enemies also sits here, by the way)
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It's not quite that easy, Orin. Shield potions go for ~50-60g from NPCs. If you sell shield potions even at 40g, some people are more willing to just buy them from the NPC at that price in bulk. And this holds true for mage armor - there's an NPC who sells mage armor for 36 gold, and you literally cannot sell mage armor potions because players would rather just buy from him than put in an order for a tiny discount.
The usual markup for sales items in CoA is ~20% profit. You also forget that potionmakers get bonus brews, which are literally free money. Potioncrafters could technically sell at cost and still make a profit off the bonus brews - which I believe RabbitTRK has done before.
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Honestly, my brewers and crafters do so because its fun to sell them and be needed. Profit is secondary. It builds interaction.
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..You also forget that potionmakers get bonus brews, which are literally free money. Potioncrafters could technically sell at cost and still make a profit off the bonus brews…
I agree orin, pc crafter prices amaze me too.
Potion makers are filthy disgusting rich, even selling at 2-3 gold over cost. That's why the prices are what hey are. Because you can set them there and still make thousands and thousands of gold per week without ever leaving the spire.
@Strife:
Mind that if we do consider some form of limitation it likely wont be an App, but rather the requirement to be wanded by a DM in order to be able to craft. The lack of wanding can then have one of the following effects:
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Prevent the non wanded PC from crafting at all.
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Inflict heavier penalties on crafting without said token: Double/Triple the production cost and/or xp penalties.
The second option will still allow alts to craft but at a much steeper cost that it will be much more worth it to craft on a main.
Keep in mind, this also punishes players who are in bad timezones and may have a hard time finding a dM to get wanded, players who don't keep close watch on the forums to know they need to reach a DM.. especially new ones testing out the server, and it adds to the already to heavy workload of the DM staff that pulls their attention away form story telling and towards more and more admin crap, which deprives the server as a whole from something way more important than Jo Blow getting shield potions at 28gp instead of 35. I really don't see anything good coming out of this.
@Ravken...now:
Yes, I completely agree that the root cause of this problem involves the player count. PC's feats, spells, loot, etc has gotten nerfed down over the last several years. Quests have gotten harder. Playercounts have reduced removing the high availability of spellcasters. As a result. people have become more efficient at mechanics and this includes the acquisition and use of potions. Combine these factors and you reach a point where without alt brewers, some players may find the server survivable when there isn't a "main" that is not only a brewer, but logged in at their frequency, on their "team" and in their timezone.
Make the crafting stations require a pass only given out by a DM.
Again with making more things require DM attention that sin't story telling, more learning curve for what few players we may occasionally get, and more not-fun work for DM staff that is already short handed and overworked.
In short…
@Fey:
Second, I would enforce the issue of metagaming / item transfer on a case by case basis. If a dm sees a alt character that is exclusively selling potions / items for his allies before logging off, the dm can then forcibly retire that character, and if the issue persists, take up the issue with the player.
This is essentially my viewpoint on the issue.
it IS an issue, and it IS cheating to do this, as, as stated, it's functionally the same as passing one of your own characters an item from another of your own characters - It's granting you a direct advantage via a separate one of your characters.
However, I personally hate any form of limiting people to playing what they want to play, when they want to play it.
I've enjoyed playing a crafter alt, just to fiddle around with, and learn about the crafting systems (before I became a DM, and actually fiddled with them directly! then it was testing things) and I think others can, and should be able to enjoy that playstyle as well.
I personally think, that people should keep this factor in mind, and make sure they aren't being obviously metagamey by supplying a bunch of people they absolutely know are going to be using those items to help their own main character progress.
Creating a direct rule limiting play styles, or implementing some kind of "mechanical fix" for this seems counter productive to the actual issue at hand, which is people making sure to keep the rules, and fairness of the server in mind.
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Pretty much this.
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My view on this pretty much aligns with zools. If you want to make an alt that brews because you play in a timezone that often finds you with plenty of time to brew (hopefully there's not too many of them, but I'm sure it still happens) I see no problem with it. If your friends end up benefiting, that doesn't bother me either, as long as two conditions are met. Your friends don't get a discount or priority on orders, and the rest of the server knows you brew and buys at the same cost. If, however, your alt is undercutting a full time character that brews, that seems shitty to me.
That being said, if it were up to me, shields and barks would be waaaaaay more expensive and rare then they are now. But that's a whole separate issue I suppose, I just can't help myself >_>.
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So…. D.B.A.D?
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Zool's Rule, yes.
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My view on this pretty much aligns with zools. If you want to make an alt that brews because you play in a timezone that often finds you with plenty of time to brew (hopefully there's not too many of them, but I'm sure it still happens) I see no problem with it. If your friends end up benefiting, that doesn't bother me either, as long as two conditions are met. Your friends don't get a discount or priority on orders, and the rest of the server knows you brew and buys at the same cost. If, however, your alt is undercutting a full time character that brews, that seems shitty to me.
That being said, if it were up to me, shields and barks would be waaaaaay more expensive and rare then they are now. But that's a whole separate issue I suppose, I just can't help myself >_>.
Quite unrealistic i'm afraid :/ Why would a brewing alt brew for everyone?
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It is unrealistic, but its good form to not be an asshole. I've been guilty of it, I'm sure we all have, just strive to be true to the nature of you character, not your OOC desires.
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Why would a brewing alt brew for your allies only, at cut prices?
Because metagaming.
It's simple guys, don't give yourself unfair advantages using other characters, or we delete them.
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I'm not saying it SHOULD, i'm saying that's usually how it works. Because brewing for everyone is full time job >.>
It's not right, but it's happening
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What are really the scenarios where someone creates a brewer as an alt? I ask because if there is no scenario where one does it to have fun or create (fair) fun, it shouldn't be allowed really.
The points in favor of alt brewers (and some answers to them)
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I do have a great fun time brewing! –-> Why isn't your main a brewer? Why none of your mains brew? ---> But I wanted those sweet metaspell feats instead, not a gimped main. . . ---> Pat pat on the back We 've aaaaalll been there. . .
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I do it because my alt really can use the coin from it. ---> Yes there are plots to push, events organised that need the coin... But not really as it is an alt. (There might be very few exceptions?) Perhaps I want to buy something really expensive? But I made an alt to quest and profit from that, is enough for most things.
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I actually enjoy questing with alts and want to power to lvl 10. Just happens that this one's a brewer. ---> Then again I have spent all my feats for crafting, gimped a character that was meant for a level 10 questing powerhouse and spend my time brewing for potions I do not use myself even.
And the reality:
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I made an alt to brew, with good intention mostly, as I help my team and IG friends, and wouldn't say no to other customers. Then, as I m bored to actually play the character, I end up reaching the required lvl for the feats and only have time to brew for my team. Then I logoff and on to my main. ---> Well, we all start with the best intentions don't we . . .
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I made an alt to brew for my team as I did not want to gimp my main character. I know it 's metagamish, I know I might end up getting potions my alt made, on my main which is forbidden, but I did it anyway ---> Wow, I. . . I didn't expect such honesty to be frank. . .
I do not see why one would make an alt other than to do what is discussed in the thread. RPing a merchant - brewer should be done on main characters if it is fun for people. Alts never have the time to do such RP properly, unless they turn to mains.
Maybe if there was a scripted perma-store where merchant characters can leave items for sale, for a price they set via a dialogue similar to crafting tables? That would allow everyone access to a brewer's goods. Then again I do not see a way to force its use without disabling trade menu option between PCs. . .
Now to sum up I only started playing recently again, I dunno the current situation on the server so I don't hint to any PC in specific. Also I honestly don't remember if I ever made any sort of alt crafter for such purpose, but I 've made so many alts I could be guilty of one or all the aforementioned scenarios. So yeah, no intention to insult anyone. Cheers!
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I'm not saying it SHOULD, i'm saying that's usually how it works. Because brewing for everyone is full time job >.>
It's not right, but it's happening
To clarify the issue on the situation -
You don't have to brew for -everyone-, you have to not log on, to brew for your allies, then log your main back in and go questing.
How it should work is:
"I feel like playing my wizard, he's kinda fun to quest around and rp with a bit."
- Logs on their wizard who brews potions
- goes on a quest with some people, selling them a few potions he brewed
- brews a few more potions after the quest, and makes a sending offering them for sale
- get's some gold off whatever customers turn up, perhaps even making a few of them compete for the best potions in an auction style.
- roleplays in the spire for a while, watching some fights, and offering to cast spells on people or use healing kits - for a price, of course! mans gotta eat!
- logs out
How it sometimes works, but shouldn't:
[PM from IC ally of main] - Hey man, I'm super low on shield potions and have a load of gold, your brewer need some gold? WINK WINK WINK WINK~!!!!!!
[PM back] Sure man, just let me turn in this quest.- turns in quest
- logs out
- logs in potion brewer
- immediately runs to the brewing cauldrons and brews up a bunch of stuff
- immediately runs to his ally, selling the potions hew brewed, and the others he had left over, to his "Regular guy" for "mates rates"
- logs out
- logs on main
- pwns qwest with guy his alt sold everything to.
You KNOW when you are causing a problem.
Use that knowledge, to not be a dick.
Or I won't just delete the alt. -
I'm not saying it SHOULD, i'm saying that's usually how it works. Because brewing for everyone is full time job >.>
It's not right, but it's happening
[Zool edit]
Not sure your getting it here.(This has now been changed to read) - - - To clarify the issue on the situation -
[Zool edit ends]You don't have to brew for -everyone-, you have to not log on, to brew for your allies, then log your main back in and go questing.
How it should work is:
"I feel like playing my wizard, he's kinda fun to quest around and rp with a bit."
- Logs on their wizard who brews potions
- goes on a quest with some people, selling them a few potions he brewed
- brews a few more potions after the quest, and makes a sending offering them for sale
- get's some gold off whatever customers turn up, perhaps even making a few of them compete for the best potions in an auction style.
- roleplays in the spire for a while, watching some fights, and offering to cast spells on people or use healing kits - for a price, of course! mans gotta eat!
- logs out
How it sometimes works, but shouldn't:
[PM from IC ally of main] - Hey man, I'm super low on shield potions and have a load of gold, your brewer need some gold? WINK WINK WINK WINK~!!!!!!
[PM back] Sure man, just let me turn in this quest.- turns in quest
- logs out
- logs in potion brewer
- immediately runs to the brewing cauldrons and brews up a bunch of stuff
- immediately runs to his ally, selling the potions hew brewed, and the others he had left over, to his "Regular guy" for "mates rates"
- logs out
- logs on main
- pwns qwest with guy his alt sold everything to.
You KNOW when you are causing a problem.
Use that knowledge, to not be a dick.
Or I won't just delete the alt.I'm not the bad guy here, I'm just the one saying this DOES (or has) existed. Shooting the messenger is pretty much the surest way to make sure things don't get reported.
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Hey man, I wasn't shooting you, it wasn;t intentionally directed at you, sorry you took it that way.
I was illustrating the situation to make it more clear for anyone reading the thread.
I'll edit the initial sentence to make this more clear though.
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I love you guys.
Keep calm and RP.
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Perhaps raise the requirement in level of the brew potion/craft wands feat, and make it cost more in XP to brew. This way, yes it will be harder for main brewers, but 'alt' brewers will actually need to be adventurers to go get that XP and levels required to brew their potions.
And for the main brewers, considering the cost in XP raises, they could raises the prices of their potions to make up for it.
Just an idea like that.
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There's no XP cost in brewing, since the XP change was made, as it becomes quite difficult to get XP at higher levels.
There is also an increase in potion cost as is. -
There's no XP cost in brewing, since the XP change was made, as it becomes quite difficult to get XP at higher levels.
There is also an increase in potion cost as is.Why not put the XP cost back, then? If a brewer makes potions for their ally, they'd need to go back adventuring to get the XP back - thus - risquing to be killed by ennemies.