So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please)
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I’m going to do something I know not to be in my best interests because it feels to me like if people are addressing these issues in private- even if they save face with the community at large- are going to be repeating a lot of the same reasons on both sides of this particular coin.
Without naming names, I’m willing to bet actual money those that will respond will tell you about how these cheats (both the item duping and bounty exploit) are done by and large to cover a fundamental truth that we as a community have spoken of at length time and time and time again.
Grinding. Is. Boring.
The consumables required to enjoy CoA are just that, requirements, and the overwhelming majority of people want to get through that grind in the shortest span possible so they can party up with their friends (or the average level of the server) and do the more fun/interesting things rather than grinding through the same quests for the umpteenth time in the 14 some years the server has been around.
The fact that V6 will begin at level 6 speaks to the power creep meta we’ve been going through for years as CoA tried to find its own identity, these things happen and nobody (I don’t think) is really upset with that. But in the current setting getting to that ‘basic’ level of competency requires a massive investment in time and consumables if you can’t find someone to quest with.
Most people blow through to ~8+ and stockpile those sorts of resources because they’ve been conditioned that there is no alternative. Whether by mechanics or the median level, people that do not have fat sacks of gold struggle to equip themselves to be relevant within these spheres and this has a massively negative effect on peoples’ enjoyment of the server.
Thus, you wind up with this sort of behavior. Some people will cheat because they can, granted, but I’ve spoken to seven people knocking on from the Professor’s posting who’ve all told me in no uncertain terms:
MinionofDerp: Genuinely curious, not passing judgment
“Grinding for consumables that are necessary to enjoy CoA drains the fun out of it”
“I wanted to do the fun stuff without the boring stuff before it”
MinionofDerp: You're the third person to say exactly that
“I figure we all did it for the same reasons tbh”“[...] playing this game to grind up consumables and gold is mind numbing and draining.”
“funding other people's concepts with the gold and trying not to grind up quests while at a ridiculously high level because its killing you.”
“fuck me I hate this game for that right now.”A lot of this stuff gets said quietly, some people don’t want to put their foot forward, some fear reprisal from the community or the team. Nobody asked me to make this post, and I’m not going to sell anyone out-- this is me coming forward and saying this because this is something that has shown up repeatedly (regular as clockwork) with new people and players that’ve been here for decades.
Until you get out of the gold and skill rut to know /what/ consumables to buy and /when/ to use them, you will never get to a level that you can enjoy the server at. Some people never do and those that do see the crushing futility of it when you’ll lose that progress in a split second.
Not going to waste my time beating the dead horse of ‘we need a penalty or death won’t mean anything’, I’m just coming at this from my experiences with trying to keep three new people (some brand new to nwn) interested in a server that constantly beats them down for their ignorance and promising them that it’s worth it once you get past the gold and death slog.
For others, it’s a case of funding other peoples’ plots and helping them do stuff other than walk the gold treadmill where you spend more than you make because shit went wrong on a boss fight and now you can’t afford to replenish your own stock, much less pay bounties or buy equipment for new faction members or all the other things you need coin for. We’ve been bitching about the lack of options for making money for years, this is just a knock-on of that.
Put to a fine point, it’s because this game is cooperative and because few to no options exist for people to gain coin outside of ‘investing’ it in the quest system with or without the skills to play that numbers game that people cheat. People want to play with their friends, keep the plot wheels turning, just plain have fun without having to spend all their time from connection to log off trying to get just far enough ahead so they can do something outside of questing.
I’ve posted a strawpoll here: https://www.strawpoll.me/15363496
That people can use anonymously if they fear reprisal on the forum. This isn’t to engender lack of trust in the community or team, just a simple way for people to speak up without having to say anything. It operates on the honor system, obviously, but I’m sure we’re adult enough to handle this too.
So! There we go, come what may, I don’t think the case can be made more strongly.
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Not entirely sure what the argument is being made here.
Grinding is boring, sure, I get that. I hate it as well. How does that justify cheating?
It doesn't.
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It's not justification. These are reasons cheating happens. I don't think an argument is being made at all. This is simple empirical observation and player testimony. I have fun because I'm used to not being good at the game, and after many years i found a nitch. I've also cheated ((many years ago)) because I thought it was the only way to gather the supplies needed to party with the big boys.
Does starvation make stealing bread less Illegal? No. But it's one reason bread is stolen.
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I ... Walk backwards sometimes. or side step. IT IS NOT INTENTIONAL I JUST SUCK.
I didn't even know it was breaking rules until midway through V3 Moloch made a huge post about it. I realized I did this the next time I was subject to an unexpected combat. I'm kinda a jumpy guy and hit "S" as a reaction. It's not something I do intentionally, it just happens. I think the reason its bad is because it makes you break combat or something without an AOO.
I've started countering it by taking my left hand off the keyboard and just clicking.
Yeah, i'm a clicker now. Judge me.
(this is my confession)
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@gruffman yeah. Polaris caught me doing that and I died. He said "I would have raised you, but you kept walking backwards" and I was like "shit I'm sorry. It was just a reaction to an orc burying an axe in my head" lol. Good times.
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Hi all.
Here's the thing for me. I'd like these seven people to contact me or another DM if they would prefer to talk about this. Cheating takes away from the community. There are at least a few players that don't know about this and perhaps other exploits so they get even further behind, have to grind for longer, get more frustrated, and so.
Not sure if there is any overlap with your seven but I've had two players reach out to me about this.
To the points raised in this post, there is a lot underway behind the curtain to accommodate the multitude of play styles, and what each player considers "fun". As Spiffy said, grinding is boring. I don't think that's an excuse to cheat though.
I'm "New" but I not new here.
Please, please, please, those of you who took the time to reach out to TwistingWinds, take the time to reach out to me or another DM that you are comfortable with. It's going to be figured out eventually anyhow.
Also, please stop doing this.
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I don't mind 'grinding' so much, as I have an enormeous gameplay time.
I do understand those who don't like it though and have less than my 16 hours a day available.
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The Most Interesting Missclick in the World said pretty much what I had thought to say.
Don't cheat. If you aren't having fun, talk to a DM. We're trying to make things fun for you, promise!
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"The Grind" is one of the most tedious aspects of CoA, ESPECIALLY the starting grind. I can't even count how many times i got an exciting idea, logged in, looked at the regular breastplate and just went "fuck it...." and logged out. Not too long ago i played drunk and was on an app PC and for some unexplained stupid reason, moved some things from a character to character. Don't even TRY to ask why, i knew i'd get caught and get caught i did. I didn't even try to excuse it, just admitted it right away and took my punishment. (Granted, i was PISS drunk, so it's an explanation, not an excuse >.> ). That's how boring the initial grind can be.
There's MY confession. Not sure if it serves any purpose except... truth be told, i don't know... with the level CoA is at right now, the starting grind is just DEATH. It's not that long, but it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring. Especially when everyone else is level 8+.
Truth be told, i thinkthat adding a cheap ass fullplate to the road to Arabel merchant that could be bought for starting gold would solve this to a biiiiiiiiiiiiig extent. Everyone who wears heavy is looking to get their hands on one asap anyway and it's ALL that the first levels or gold grind revolves around.
Make it ugly, embarassing to wear and not modifiable, but make it really cheap. I really think that would solve a substantial amount of the starting grind weariness. I know it would for me.
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Without a 'grind' items have no value in relation to each other. Similarly why death penalty is important.
That said, I think the problem is less of a problem that earning items is time consuming and more that players want to be in an inclusive setting.
I know that I personally along with numerous others confess to hitting level 6 as quickly as possible in order to be able to participate in server quests, of which level 6 or 7 is usually the minimum level required to make an impact.
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I remember being told about another player making use of an exploit, and that this player only revealed it to them DMs after profiting from it immensely. Like, enough to make a difference in PvP and in-game events with far reaching consequences. Unfortunately I was not able to tell the DMs about it then due to the problems I was facing in game.
Grinding is something I loathe in CoA. Its why I struggle to log in some times, especially during off peak hours, where there is nothing but grinding.
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@spiffymeister said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
Not entirely sure what the argument is being made here.
Grinding is boring, sure, I get that. I hate it as well. How does that justify cheating?
It doesn't.
I believe the argument is people cheat because grinding is boring, so easing off on the need for grinding would mean less cheating. How exactly this could be done, I'm not sure.
@arkham-warlock said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):Don't cheat. If you aren't having fun, talk to a DM. We're trying to make things fun for you, promise!
I think new players who are frustrated by the grind would rather move on than try reaching out to a DM. Or figure out how to cheat. Talking to the DMs as a new player can be intimidating. I mean, when I was new I just wanted to stay out of the way as much as possible. Even for some people that have been around for a while, reaching out to the DMs can be difficult, and it's not because you're doing anything wrong. In a tabletop setting, it's easy to talk to the DM because it's more intimate, but on the internet, there's a lot of distance and uncertainty.
That said, I do see the DM team trying to be inclusive and make things fun for everyone, and it's appreciated.
I think there's value in discussing this as a community. Everyone who's playing on this server wants to have fun, and discussing things that would be fun is a great way to generate ideas. Likewise is discussing common problems and what could make them easier to deal with. None of this is about venting or complaining about things we don't think can or will be changed. Doesn't mean there's not a place to blow off steam, though the public forums aren't a great place to do that.I've often heard Moloch talk about keeping things positive. A positive attitude and an eye towards progress will keep this thread constructive. Even contributing with "I don't like [x]" isn't negative if it's said with the goal of eventually seeing something better.
Just my two cents.
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Naturally people have reasons for cheating in games. Too hard, too boring, more enjoyable etc.
That still doesn't justify it to me, but at the same time that's not to say the delicate optimal balance between challenge/fun has been reached yet on CoA (or ever will be, in this or any other game!)
It shouldn't be happening, and in a game like CoA where (mostly) human DMs can literally shower you with gold/xp/levels/perks there is less reason than most to require it. To me this goes back to the whole Win Mentality thread. It's not that I want everyone to have the same challenge/difficulty as me, it's simply that it shouldn't matter but it does, through things like Quest difficulty, PvP, Exploration difficulty requiring you to be not just moderately OK but good at fighting to do more than wander around Citadel/Downtown.
But that is a separate topic entirely. The DMs are being very reasonable here and I think this needs to be discussed in private by those involved with the DM team. Cheating, like building more and more powerful characters, only contributes to power creep and makes it that much more difficult to address or contend with.
Also I may be in the minority here but I enjoy low level CoA. The only grind I dislike is winning back lost levels.
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@wabbitseason said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
The only grind I dislike is winning back lost levels.
That's about the same to me.
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I agree with what is said above, nothing justifies it, but here we are still, so it might be wise to find the reason so it can be addressed.
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To me, this is just win mentality. A deliberate form of cheating so you can have a one up on other players who play by the rules.
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This is a totally legitimate expression.
Grinding is boring.
The key to solving this is to make "grinding" not boring.
This is hard.
Look at how many large games with long term characters exist, especially with a persistent world structure exist, and then see how many have managed to turn the "grind" into fun activities.
Hint: not many.
It's hard, professional experienced game designer hard.
It can be done though. We should try to figure out how to do it as a community.
The main way I have seen, is by tying things into some form of narrative that occurs "naturally" along every "grind path"
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@zool said in So let's talk about cheating and why it happens (no pedantry please):
Look at how many large games with long term characters exist, especially with a persistent world structure exist, and then see how many have managed to turn the "grind" into fun activities.
Hint: not many.
It's hard, professional experienced game designer hard.
It can be done though. We should try to figure out how to do it as a community.Yeah, this. I definitely appreciate how difficult it is do something like this. There's no magic button that can "fix" grinding. For us players, it's important to keep in mind what's reasonable.
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Won't lie, grinding is boring. Getting a PC from level 1 to a level where I can interact with most players is boring. Usually, you're the only level 1 around when there are a bunch of level 7s.
My solution: make a 'sweet spot' range where you can do all the quests (say level 10). Make that the "average level". Let players start pretty close to that level (say level 6) so they can do quests with at least half the players on the server.
Again, probably a discussion for elsewhere, but that is the direction we're hoping to move into with NWNEE and v6.
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Further to the above thing I said.
It's actually even better if the "grind" just happens, without you having to really think about it.
An example would be, there's a bunch of gameplay for druids, which results in you having the items/skills/knowledge/whatever, to create a druidic stave, or open a special druid secret place.
As opposed to you wanting a druid stave/to enter secret place, then have to go kill X necromancers to do it.