How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over
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Servers been really busy recently.
Fake news that it's dying
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Servers been thriving the past few days i've been active again. And while the reason is obviously that my return heralded in a a new coa golden age, I suppose its also possible that things are not as bad as some players make it out to be, and coa is infact doing stuff right.
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The servers doing a lot right.
The DMs are more approachable than ever with Spiffy making a Shout when he's online saying he's available to help with players wanting to push things.
The other DMs are really helpful if you contact them on Discord
Honestly I think the servers in a really good place
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@verk said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Servers been really busy recently.
Fake news that it's dying
That.
Also, didn't want to comment here, but:
If I see that you're actively working toward something, or if you approach me and say that you have a cool idea, I'll happily work with you. Yes, I'm not the most responsive at times (comes with the territory of juggling 40+ international players and career/academic pursuits), but I want everyone to have fun. Everyone. Not just the mech bois, not just the people who enjoy sitting in the Spire roleplaying all day - everyone.
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Lets make something very clear; The server IS NOT dying. Not in the least. However, no less than six individual players have contacted me since I made the first post, voicing their concern and their agreement with the sentiment and spirit of this discussion, people who have not themselves voiced it publicly already. That is a rather large minority, if we look at the numbers of the Election, as a rough idea of active players.
I read through the entire discussion this morning. I have not read anyone stating that mechanics are bad, and that they are not part of the game. I find the arguments that "we do not want kissy, feely coa", or those stating that "those who are good at mechanics suck at roleplaying." Such arguments polarize an otherwise valid discussion.
The issue regarding mechanics and RP, is something else entirely. You can be good at both. @CitizenBane is a solid roleplayer, and kicks ass mechanically, @Chips another. @SpiffyMeister, before he became a DM, showed you can easily do both.
IMO, the issue is something else. It is the focus on Mechanics, at the EXPENSE of roleplay, with the purpose of winning. For a long time, "winning" conflicts by PVP, or by surviving INSANE ODDS on DM quests, meant you received perks you would never be able to obtain otherwise.
A fine example of what I mean, was Caeks last Archprelate character. I was given so much shit by PCs, because I wanted to extend Caek a bit of OOC courtesy, and not FD him immediately on day one of a confrontation. The character was less than a week old, when he fought @verk 's Gondite in Old Town. But so many people wanted to rip this fresh PC apart, instead of extending a bit of OOC courtesy, and letting the story unfold. And instead of seeing this as a way to prolong the story, it was used to haunt my character for AGES afterwards.
The best stories come from two equally strong opponents telling a story of rivalry, ending in an epic show down. Instead, I see alot of people IG or bragging on Discord, on how they created monsters that "can only be stopped by invis ganks". That to me tells a lot about the server mindset, which is what I hope to change back towards storytelling, instead of showing how you can optimize your Barbarian with up towards 80% damage immunity, so you can brag about it OOC, or you can ensure you can beat 99% of the server.
Those who excel at mechanics, have the upper hand on scripted quests, on DM quests, in Thayan Arenas, and in PVP conflicts. Why, instead of trying to build your characters to become unstoppable monsters, dont you use your knowledge to make it balanced? How awesome is it not to be able to be able to roleplay during scripted quests, because your knowledge of the mechanics means you do not have to be OOC scared of death that much? Hells, not needing to be concerned about character deaths OOC, should allow you to RP the fear of death even easier.
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Also, @Mr-Moloch , Your responses here made my day. It showed you are taking the matter seriously, which has mostly been why this needed to be said. However, I doubt this discussion can move any further.
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I'd hardly consider myself one of the veteran players of the server, but i've been around a little while now and a definitely see were Olouth is coming from.
While I, much to the confusion of most people I play with, tend to respond to death and XP loss by laughing my ass off. I have seen some players outright refuse to go exploring or on fun DM quests because the idea of losing XP and therefore mechanical power is not worth all the awesome roleplay potential that could come from it.
I've had loads of little sparks of concepts i've given up on because my RP focused build wasn't "viable" and the suggested alterations were just about the most efficient numbers (case in point, why even the most dedicated conjuration Wizards on the server probably wouldn't touch the idea of taking it as their school specialisation with a 10 foot pole)
I understand the need for mechanical skill, but as time goes on the gap between people who know mechanics and those who don't will only get bigger. I honestly see it eventually looping back around, and us ending up with "sorry, you're too powerful. If we take you on this dm quest with us it'll be balanced to your skill and we'll all die"
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I really don't see the DM team rewarding the crap out of powerbuilds and super PVPers at all. For the most part, they get their rewards on their own and end up dying horriby in the end without much memory anyway. I don't see many statues and memorials around for the great power build characters of our time, but for the great RPers of our time. Also, I wish to point out, although I suck as a player and tend to quit once I get power and rewards, I have always ONLY been rewarded for RP. I actually quit most recently BECAUSE I started to get this "winner mentality" where I had to be a certain level for the next DM event and knew it was time to step aside. Every character I have ever had worth a salt has gotten stomped in PvP and come out on top with an amazing reward for RP and story. I only came back because I was ready to return to that cherishing of the story, instead of caring about winning. It may seem like the server is becoming more action but those of us who love the RP can take a stand to simply slow things down. I've seen it happen already. Only doing quests which relate to a plot and using them as a plot device, not powering through quests just to save buffs but instead RPing every door, every room. Sure... I tend to see it more AFTER level 6 when people stop powering through the lowbie quests but it's still there.
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@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Also, @Mr-Moloch , Your responses here made my day.
I think most of the concerns in this thread have been addressed conceptually, anything more is just a matter of time for those ideas to permeate out (and they already are, clearly, just some people have just had more lasting impressions made from different experiences).
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@wanderingmischief Hey man, what I think you're missing is me saying "WHAT DO YOU WANT DONE?" I'm not sweeping it under the rug or saying the perception isn't a problem, I'm saying that unless people point out the problems and bring them directly to the DM team and take positive action themselves--what do they want done.
Because sure, if its complained about every 6 months, you're just venting out frustrations rather than trying to solve the problem.
Tell me a concrete thing a DM can do, tell me a concrete thing a player can do.
I'll help make sure it happens.
Give me a pile of steaming frustrations and say "its awful" and there really isn't anything to be done.
Please recognize a sincere effort to help combined with a request for useful data and ideas in a constructive and positive environment for what it is rather than mistake it for a desire to sweep things under a rug or lock a topic.
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By now, everything that needed to be said has been said twice, but if I can lay it flat as a 'tell me a concrete thing'...
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Make questing less buff reliant/make buffs last longer.
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Give stronger, more powerful rewards to players who nurture conflict rather than jump for it
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This is asking a lot as well, but spice scripted quests more, derail them, people know them by now and doing something entirely different (with more opportunity for RP) is much more exciting than red 'till dead.
And on the player side, we need to
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Co-operate OOC with enemies, giving them courtesy chances (when feasible) to help create an overarching conflict rather than a quick death. Let the tension simmer and allow some dastardly schemes to start, or an epic battle erupt.
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Document our achievements, create google documents or upload screenshots to an imgur album, tell DMs if you think you deserve something and show why. They're just people and its hard to notice Minion McGee even if he's doing an amazing job if you just never catch his hours.
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Learn to improve on our respective playstyles. Learning mechanics is not this daunting, challenging thing. The improvement I've had as a player can directly be attributed by being told just a FEW small things by some of the top-tier players who are happy to see other people improve. The same way that mercy, imo, should be shared more often by some of those mechanical players in question, if only to make the ultimate FD a bit more exciting.
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If people want to do something silly like brag about their mechanics on discord it's no skin off my back. I don't see why you care overly much about that as it is a purely ooc channel. I can see it being grating though. I don't see how it correlates to their pc's not roleplaying certain aspects of their character such as fear of death etc.
I never discuss anything but vague stuff with regard to my characters on discord. Not fond of discussing too much about their character sheet, but I guess some people like doing that. I certainly would try to avoid talking too much about the characters ic motivations or actions for fear of spoiling the opportunity to do so in game. So I don't think seeing what people say in discord is a good way to judge attitudes.
At least if it's only people bragging about something silly like mechanics in a game of fairly simple math. If people are being jerks thats another story altogether!
I really think you should get these six people to come forward and discuss their concerns in a more specific way. Having people who agree with you is meaningless if they don't represent themselves. I'm not saying that to invalidate yours or their opinions. I just feel that they should speak for themselves or bringing them up at all comes across as the "winner mentality" that spawned your initial post.
Fairly sure that isn't how you meant it, but its very much how it can be perceived. I think often people perceive things as a winner mentality, where there are just slips of the tongue, well intended, but poorly chosen words or actions spoken/taken. I'd also like to add for clarity's sake that this winner mentality extends to every aspect of the game. Not just mechanics.
At the end of the day the best way to beat the winner mentality is to try to focus on having as much fun losing as possible. Even when you're "winning" try to focus on facilitating ways that your opponents can beat you. It's surprisingly fun to throw your opponents rope to wrap around your neck. Sure you'll find there are people who will want more and more while giving nothing. But if you have fun losing you always win. Not to mention people are much less likely to risk murdering you if they think they can cripple you in a much less risky/permanent(thanks raise dead..!) manner!
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@vagabond3103 said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
By now, everything that needed to be said has been said twice, but if I can lay it flat as a 'tell me a concrete thing'...
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Make questing less buff reliant/make buffs last longer.
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Give stronger, more powerful rewards to players who nurture conflict rather than jump for it
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This is asking a lot as well, but spice scripted quests more, derail them, people know them by now and doing something entirely different (with more opportunity for RP) is much more exciting than red 'till dead.
And on the player side, we need to
-
Co-operate OOC with enemies, giving them courtesy chances (when feasible) to help create an overarching conflict rather than a quick death. Let the tension simmer and allow some dastardly schemes to start, or an epic battle erupt.
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Document our achievements, create google documents or upload screenshots to an imgur album, tell DMs if you think you deserve something and show why. They're just people and its hard to notice Minion McGee even if he's doing an amazing job if you just never catch his hours.
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Learn to improve on our respective playstyles. Learning mechanics is not this daunting, challenging thing. The improvement I've had as a player can directly be attributed by being told just a FEW small things by some of the top-tier players who are happy to see other people improve. The same way that mercy, imo, should be shared more often by some of those mechanical players in question, if only to make the ultimate FD a bit more exciting.
These are clear and concrete.
That said: "make questing less buff reliant". I'm rolling characters, I'm doing quests. I've not found any that are buff reliant. To make them less buff reliant, we need players to point out why they feel they are, make specific requests for changes such as "On quest A, monster Y does 50 unblockable acid damage. This is a level 7 to 12 quest. An average PC on this quest would have 80; this makes the quest too hard because two of these creatures spawn and that kills anyone who does not metagame or bring buff Y."
We can fix things like that. Vague "buffs are mandatory" doesn't help quite enough. But we hear you!
I think point two, we're doing, we're going to be doing more.
Point three is a good idea, but I'll point out. If I log in to spice a quest, I see people roleplaying it, I add to what they're doing. If I see them doing it quietly, I may drop some spawns to surprise them with a change up--but then go play with people who are telling stories rather than clicking buttons. So I'd also ask:
1). Use quests as opportunities to roleplay adventurers, not as the means to stockpile your fourth row of CSW potions.
2). Give up the "stockpile" mentality that says you need 80,000 gold and 500 CSW potions; and host some events for other players to give away some of the wealth you have to entertain people with contests, events, etc--try to see yourself as a mini-NPC, what can you do with your hoarded resources to make things fun beyond feel bad ass that you're untouchable with it in pvm and pvp (because you're not, people will just use a lame invisi-gank tactic to take you out then).
3). If you're going to arrange quests OOC; be a good community member and still make a sending and invite other people to adventure with you.
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By buffs being mandatory, he means that you cannot do a quest without Animals, Bark and Shield at some point. Minimum. Well, some builds can, but a lot can't. And, because of this need to be barked and shielded so you're not drinking healing potions like you've got an addiction, people rush the quests, because if they don't, and slow down / stop to RP, their buffs run out and it gets even more expensive.
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I also know that Spiff said in Discord that he thinks quests are a little too reliant on buffs - I’m not bringing this up to say DM soandso said this so I’m right, but that the talk needs to happen internally as much as we need to start documenting the type of thing we struggle with without. I’m of the thinking that the buff up smack down mentality kind of gives players less chance to role play for fear of timers.
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@mrpenguin-phil said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
By buffs being mandatory, he means that you cannot do a quest without Animals, Bark and Shield at some point. Minimum. Well, some builds can, but a lot can't. And, because of this need to be barked and shielded so you're not drinking healing potions like you've got an addiction, people rush the quests, because if they don't, and slow down / stop to RP, their buffs run out and it gets even more expensive.
Gah! Yes, how do I fix that? You want every quest redesigned from the ground up so they're better balanced? That's what I'm doing with v6.
You want me to point out to me a quest that is the WORST right now though so I can attend to that one? Otherwise, you're asking us to do the above; and we all realize the team can't just do that.
Not saying quests aren't buff reliant in some cases, but I do not know which ones. We need players to point out specifically when a quest is too easy AND too hard and when the rewards make no sense (rather than just gratefully grabbing the easy loot or simply ignoring the quest that isn't 'worth it') -- give me specific things I can address please!
Honestly, NO ONE seemed to have pointed out to me at least that we had quests which simply dropped dozens of CSW potions; people just grabbed them. There was a problem there!
I am guessing there is a HUGE problem with Monument of Ooze right now, I see that quest spammed daily. No one is telling us what it is though, and I bet its not that you need buffs to do it--I'm guessing that its WITH BUFFS very rewarding.
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To quantify, if a quest is rewarding some items and maybe some useful gear, you can expect somewhere from ~300gp to maybe ~600gp a person with an average of 5 party members.
Most I saw on a quest so far, and I've been trying to do all the quests I haven't seen before, was 680gp per party member from quest turn in and loot.
If the melee characters need to drink 3 barkskin potions and 3 shield potions and those are not replaced by loot found it can get expensive.
Assuming an average of 90gp per potion plus or minus 20 depending on appraisal skill and vendor, that's about 540gp in consumables. 360gp if you can get the quest done in 2 potions each and obviously 180gp with just 1 potion each.
It's worth noting that with Temon being fixed, I think the income from quests will go up more now, as I've been able to select some loot to sell from my share and do well in that aspect.
The problem is that this is a simple math problem. Those that figure it out; clerics/wizards that buff themselves, Fighters that blitz through on as few potion consumptions as possible, or even bringing less people, means that quests typically placate either a large group and going fast, thus losing out on roleplay, or taking a chance with less people because there is a powerful wizard or cleric going.
That said, there are those that don't care and just go through and roleplay anyways, buff timers and potion costs be damned, but I felt it was worth pointing out.
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Its more like this (and I'm spitballing, but this is roughly how I always built quests for years):
1-4 lowbie soloable quests should garner 75 to 100-ish gold, group quests 150 to 200-ish gold.
4-8 quests should be around 250 to 300
6-10 quests about 300-500
10-12 quests around 500-750in terms of gold/potions after you run through it. If you're earning a hell of a lot more or less than that--there's a problem and help us solve it!
A solid risk of death, a really hard quest should yield more (after all, you're probably paying for more raises and using a lot more potions).
And this goes for an 'average' group.
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I don't know Moloch- I'm not a DM, I'm not a Game Designer, I'm a player. And... I didn't bring up these points to start with, just clarifying on what Vagabond said because you didn't seem to quite get it. I'm really not the person to ask on how to fix the issues, since I don't have enough experience compared to the rest of these folks who've been around almost as long as I've lived. But there's nothing wrong with us pointing out an issue, and then talking over solutions as a group, instead of a ten paragraph post on whats wrong and how you fix it, without any community input in the post.
As for Monument- It gives good loot, usually +1 Armor and Shields with Acid 5/-. It also gives really good XP, since it's a 5-12. You can go in 5 and come out 7 if you hide behind the higher levels carrying you.
It's difficult, especially with Drow Mages and Assassins in Part Two. And it falls into the mandatory buffs problem - While possible, you won't want to do this quest without Acid 5/-, Blurs and a few Clarity potions for the first part..
And Moloch, don't take this as an attack, please, because it isn't one - I often find your tone in this discussions... it's accusatory, frustrated - It often seems like you're pointing fingers at players when they bring up an issue, simply because they don't provide every detail on what the issue is, and exactly how to fix it - This isn't a suggestion thread, this is a discussion thread - It's back and forth, we talk, you listen, you ask, we answer, repeat. But when you get defensive without getting attacked, things quickly turn into an argument instead of a discussion.
I can't imagine the stress and frustration that comes with being in your position, but please, for everyone's sake, try to not let it get to you in these types of threads. Much love, Phil
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@mrpenguin-phil Sure I get it sounds accusatory. However, what do you want said?
"Sure, you're right. I'll go fix that!" Then I never do. Or do you want honestly to hear me say "Sure, I'll fix it, but I need to know what's wrong?"
Like if I got to my mechanic and say "My car makes a noise." Is he frustrated or accusatory when he says "can you describe the specific noise or do you want me to just take the car apart and rebuild it".
IE: I'm asking for help. Please do not take me asking for help as pointing a finger at players for saying "help". Honestly, that feels silly to me.