Improving player numbers.
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Generally we just add more quests, because really, why remove content? It already exists, it's done, it works (well… most of them?!) so instead of removing it, just make a new quest and add it in, then you can choose to play the old quest, or the new shiny one.
I mean, some quests do get altered due to setting reasons (the one in the sewers used to be infested with loyalist "rebels" during the time of the pheonix legion, but now has old town gang members, because loyalist rebels makes no sense, for instance)
But entirely deleting a perfectly good quest, because it's old seems counter productive. I mean, unless we are literally running out of module space, which is possible.
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Well, I think even just updating the story, tweaking the map some, and switching around the things to kill is a huge boon when it comes to freshening up quests. Its not as much about removing stuff as it is modernizing it.
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A very fair respons
I am not saying dms NEVER allow changes to occur. And yes, I have seen some AWESOME examples of how characters can shift the server. I dont mean "King of the week", but I do mean, be more open and willing to let drastic changes to occur, if a character "earns it", even if it for a time makes the server odd, or out of tune with the overall plan. That would make it seem less static, and far more dynamic.
It has gotten a lot better these last 6 months, and it is awesome. But, we can shake Things up, without it requiring huge amounts of remodelling DM wise. But this is just one guys perspective: When we hit the right stride, when changes are coming, old and new players flock to the server by 10s. But when we are static, the numbers drop.
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I would like to make a tiny comment:
Sometimes players play the same concept over and over again(And its fine, as it is their comfort zone), but also they take on the exact same goals over and over again.
This can contribute to the illusion that something is too hard or not possible. I have seen players playing characters that want to take down HC, four times in a row, putting in various levels of effort in to do that or none at all.As a player I usually made an effort to not do the same thing in a row and if I tried to take down HC with my first concept, I wouldnt try it again too soon. But thats my take on these things.
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I am not thinking of myself, or people who had the same concept 20 times over. My argument is based upon the experience, that some things are sacred, “Off limits”, darlings of parts of the majority of the dm team, and that no matter who tries to alter it, or however much work there is put into succeeding, these aspects of the server are not going to change.
Easthaven being cursed, Hardcastles control of the north, Old Town, The dangerous wilderness, ruins (The rift…), are to name a few of the things that seemed like a dm loved it too much to allow it to be altered. In V4, changes appeared to consist of a dm changing the uniform on the guards, but leaving everything intact.
I am not saying CoA is bad, or that the dm team is bad, or that no one can never accomplish anything, or poor Olouth should have been king 10 times. This has very little to do with me, or my characters. It is about CoA being perceived as static, and that if you change this perception, if you can make the server APPEAR more dynamic, you will draw many more players to the server.How? Tell stories of how Kreswell came to power, or how it was characters to got Gondegal to become lord, let players aim to become the next lords of Arabel, and if they tell a good enough story, allow them to succeed, despite how much effort was put into creating what is currently there.
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post by CaptainFantastic » 2016.08.04 11:27:10
Well, I think even just updating the story, tweaking the map some, and switching around the things to kill is a huge boon when it comes to freshening up quests. Its not as much about removing stuff as it is modernizing it.
Good idea, no need to delete them
I mean I seen the Fey Garden one for the first time in a long time. Not a bad effort but all the vines LOL. More like a garden than the orginal map.
Stories and maps are easy to change and make them more up to date
RD
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@O'louth:
It is about CoA being perceived as static, and that if you change this perception, if you can make the server APPEAR more dynamic, you will draw many more players to the server.
Yes, totally agree with this.
I have to say though, there are some things that really are "sacred" and not because the DM team just loves them, but because it really makes zero sense to actually have them be altered in any dramatic ITS GONE! kind of way.
You mentioned the ruins and "The rift"
That's really not something that can realistically be just removed entirely, as, in order to do that, you actually have to remove a huge chunk of cannon of the DnD setting, you'd have to remove the "stars" and the influence of elements even the gods in the setting can't really do much against.
Sure, you could make "the rift" be closed off (I mean, that actually happened) but access to this part of the setting will still exist in some way. It's kind of like removing AO… unless your going to re-write the setting entirely, it's always going to exist in some fasion, and entirely cutting it off from any part of the game world just removes potential concepts.
I mean, yeah, you could make it so the most common "access point" is no longer the ruins, but it still needs to exist.
Also, you'd need to create something new for the ruins underneathe Arabel, which, isn't a problem really.
But my point is, you'd just be shifting it around, some things have to exist eternally. Personally, I think dragons kind of need to exist to some extent in dungeons and dragons. In the same way as the far realms needs to exist.
There are however, many many things that can change a lot. I just think that was a fairly bad example to use.
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I'm willing to offer my help with scripting and building if that is still an issue. I love COA and want to see big numbers again. I don't know much about SQL though, but I do know a lot about the regular scripting system in NWN. I'm also pretty handy in the toolset.
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People are too focused on the "if you don't like it you should be like rolling with the punches and deal with your PC losing" when they're the ones getting DM attention, applications approved, powerquesting/building, and being fed plots just for existing. Making other people successful is just as important as personal character successes.
Its more interesting to wound an NPC, than to kill them. Lord Lhal being forced to use artificial Hardcastle limbs to begrudgingly live on + exist in theoretically CoA V6+ is 100 times cooler than "Lhal is/was an important pc, so my feelings of success, validation, and accomplishment in a video game will be met with killing them."
The involvement "You get to help my fun / I am going to oppose you to the point of pvping your concept for my personal enjoyment / gaming advantage." vs. "What can I do to have this player have some fun with what they want to do and how do I have fun with them too?" The same thing goes with detailed concepts; its just a grocery list if its not entertaining for other people.
Maybe stop having concepts with -COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT CONCEPT #359- and make interesting group concepts rather than the formulaic clone concept deity gang of alignment then fighting people trying to make interesting ones. People spend more time fishing information about other groups under the pretense of joining in order to get a leg up than actually making them work in the first place. If there's more interesting factions in Pokemon Go than CoA, that's a problem.
That said, I have little interest in moving mountains and getting a potato from it.
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Team Instinct for life
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@THE:
Team Instinct for life
Word.
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@TRASH:
People are too focused on the "if you don't like it you should be like rolling with the punches and deal with your PC losing" when they're the ones getting DM attention, applications approved, powerquesting/building, and being fed plots just for existing. Making other people successful is just as important as personal character successes.
So I am one of the biggest preachers of this. Literally, if you can't roll with the punches, you don't really have a place on CoA, that's the truth of it.
I am also someone who gets minimal DM attention (Mostly cause I always feel bad for asking). I could go without DM attention if it meant everyone rolled with the punches instead of going OOC saying you're ignoring the RP, Walking away, or logging/quitting concepts over your PC not getting the Win.
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We should just arrange a real life meet up and have a fight.
But seriously, no one's gotten personal yet, but it's probably a good plan to relax on the bashing.
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I honestly see threads like this every year, sadly alot of them tend to be about the same issues. This is however, honestly the very first time that mindset, and the system was being discussed. Normally it is about suggestions about new changes and more player power.
I can only point to Haks being the one thing we kept asking for that was finally approved after like years (feels like we asked for it for a decade, lol). Things like giving PCs more power were more the initiative of some DMs than any DM policy.
Regarding mindset, it is an ironic part of the culture in CoA that you cannot raise issues publicly because you get labeled as whining by the mature player base. You cannot raise issues to DMs because they will think you aren't having fun on their events, because there is a chance that they won't run stuff for you. A player apologize to me with heartfelt sincerity over a series of incidents that were seriously unfair, but was told by DMs to "stop bringing up the past" if I would mention it. I have been told, repeatedly, to stop playing CoA, because I could not roll with the punches. The fact is that those who are experiencing success in CoA are being protective of the system that is granting them success. While leveling criticism at management is a great way to never get promoted.
My problem is that I spent 8 years being more or less ignored by DMs, then I tasted the other side of DM attention. Its like an addiction, where you are helping to drive the story rather than being along for the ride. But after that ended, it was a 2 year slide into a brick wall. A DM took me aside some time last year, and very factually told me that you have to smile and pretend that everything is alright even if it isn't, and it was important to not create waves, because doing otherwise will have consequences. He then admitted I was on a blacklist.
I have literally been denied an app, because I had applied for a faction that my OOC rival was once in, and there was a concern I was trying to join because I was going to show how its done, or something like that. Before that, I was denied an app because I had been complaining about how I had been railroaded, and my inability to accept all the bad stuff happening to my PCs. More recently, my PCs had been bullied and beat up, or had things they had EiGed over months taken away and given to an NPC faction with zero explanation, or repeatedly denied rewards and promotions. I think its great to roll with the punches. But there's a point when you have to be a masochist to keep playing.
I feel sort of bad right now posting on this thread, because it generally means I have to take six month to a year off CoA, which kind of sucks. But I've already been shown the exit, so I guess its fine.
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I've been thinking about bringing that up, too, but I really didn't want to sound like an ungrateful individual. These threads /always/, without fail end up addressing the same issues with very little getting done and platitudes of 'well, maybe' or 'we'll talk about it'. Which is fair. Absolutely fair, it's part of working with a team.
But when push comes to shove, our retention isn't that great because of these same things we keep pointing at. Players have very little agency or things they could do /without/ some form of DM oversight, especially in dead TZ's. They can't push their own plots outside of established mechanics and (very basic) tools that exist in game and have no investment in a very static world. It's tons of work, I understand that, I think we all do, but the player doesn't see that work or the time that we've all sunk in. Just the lack of things that they can easily get elsewhere and- frankly- our apparent reluctance to implement them here.
I'm going to spend some time working on a module with some automated systems and see if something can't be cooked up and made easy to modularly drop in. . . .I love developing and tinkering, and I really don't want to see the community die, but I'm kindda worried it's going to. It's only been the true hardcore coa fans that've kept this going, and even we're saying (yet again) these things need to change.
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We should just arrange a real life meet up and have a fight.
But seriously, no one's gotten personal yet, but it's probably a good plan to relax on the bashing.
I think it would solve problems. I think if people finally just beat the shit out of each other then after everyone is out of the hospital sit down IRL with everyone and discuss what the fuck is needed to change to keep CoA alive for at least another 20 years. Because at the rate this is going I see only downhill very fast.
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We are addressing the issues slowly: First by introducing more content into the mix and also fixing painful bugs that went unanswered till now.
A new faction will also be introduced very very soon for all of you scums out there - The reason why it takes so long is because we are busy making some writeups and ensuring it does not fail as past Chaotic/Evil factions did. I am also personally scripting some neat things for this faction.I would like to comment on introducing new systems however, as I see it getting tossed around alot:
I can tell you from my experience thus far that building and scripting for CoA is not a cakewalk. We have layers upon layers of existing systems and codes and sometimes us scripters have to spend from hours to days to reserve engineer past codes(Some are not very clear). We reverse engineer and understand past systems so we dont mess something up in the process and cause more bugs. Before coming in I thought it will be easy as pie to just plug my code and play - Its not, let me assure you.
We will slowly but surely work on introducing more systems and we might even do a poll to understand from you guys what are the more burning issues for you, so we can prioritize accordingly.
At the end of the day though? Nothing beats up imagination and RP and new systems are just treats and candies to come along with the former.My own opinion about new systems is this however(And it is mine alone):
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In the past many systems(Wonderful ones) were introduced but that came at cost of In-Game activity. If we have to spend countless hours behind the Toolset/Compiler, our presence In-Game suffers and by proxy so would the story of the current metaplot and the individual stories of your characters. I honestly doubt that having PC houses will in any way get Sergeant Bob from the Militia any closer to defeating his NPC nemesis Assassin Jane, especially when a DM isnt around to handle it.
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PC Housing to me would be a mistake for two reasons - It would create more areas and thus more pressure on the server for one. Secondly people will often spend time in their own houses instead of RPing with one another. If a new player logs in and cant find anyone(Because they are all in their houses), then they log out bored and we lose a player. Again this is my own opinion and the team has every right to overrule my own opinion on this matter.
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The only reason why the team avoided Haks for so long is because, with the inclusion of Haks less and less new players are able to log in. They try to log in and see they need haks, 57% of them will not look back and go on looking for another outlet for their RP.
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CoA is not EfU, nor is it Arelith or POTM or even Sinfar. CoA has its own strengths and yes its own weaknesses. Comparing in my eyes is meaningless, because every world comes with its own new features from time to time and this is not an arming race.
We do appreciate your feedback greatly.
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I understand there are issues with such things, but people have- and still are- offering to do some of the heavy lifting to get stuff off the ground and running. It's fine to hold the belief that 'things are close enough to fine as they are' but the truth in the numbers tell a different story; people log in for events and little else these days. I stopped recommending people join up for fear they'd be bored and not engage with the server, and almost universally, the conversation reads like this:
[10:03:40 AM] [name redacted] Has CoA done anything with the non plotting gameplay loop?
[10:03:55 AM] [name redacted]: Going on quests, getting xp and gold, gaining levels
[10:04:18 AM] [name redacted]: But I remember if you just somehow died to some random crit or some goblins you lose a week of progress
[10:10:50 AM] Me: There's actually something of a big discussion going on with that right nowThat kind of stagnation is usually the start of the death spiral and we're seeing it already, without the variety and incentive to stick around people won't. I'm just pointing it out from experience and for fear of seeing it happen, I'll drop the matter and wait on cooler heads to figure it out, but I'm sorry to see it go this way: we're just repeating the same stuff again and again. :(
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Okay so I held off on this thread, but no longer.
As a player in CoA, I want to break something down for you guys that I used to only tell to certain people, or try to teach to others; gaming the system.
A system can be well understood by the way that the system is broken.
What I see in Arabel right now is a deep seeded truth; a person does need to jump through certain hoops to matter. A person needs levels to do anything. You are going to have to fight something somewhere, or life is going to be boring for both you, and the people watching you (the DMs).
At various points in the site and server’s history, people have attempted, nobly, to prove that this is untrue and that anyone with any character can matter on this server, however there are only three ways to matter on City of Arabel, that we have seen over our many, many years of running; we find these truths in the characters that people remember, the characters that have been successful. All other forms of argument must bend and kiss the ring of the proof given to us by the long litany of interesting characters with the few very strong exceptions (like Rav, who constantly conflicted with nobody) standing out AS exceptions.
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MECHANICS: A person can be a high level and well geared. We have seen this previously with ‘unkillable’ characters; Borin pops to mind as the most recent example, but everybody is well familiar by now with the ‘unkillable’ characters. The ones that get 15,000 gold bounties that we all know are going to have to be DM killed (so stop teasing us). I.E.; you can be good at the game mechanics.
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GANK SQUADS: A person can have enough prestige to involve nearly the entire server in their plot. This involves a lot of intrigue, is my favorite form of plotting. A person can have enough allies, that you can simply “zerg-rush” any and all opposition. The more people you have doing a ritual/cleansing, for example, the more likely you are to get recognized for it. Solo rituals are useless; solo fights are lost.
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DM SUPPORT: A person can have direct DM support. Nothing beats a DM save every once in a while; being plucked out of some dark ritual right before being caught. Dropping through a sewer grate, out of a PD prison. Having an entire army of were-rats at your disposal. Having NPC Militia show up to flank you. Being able to fly off a mountaintop because you have wings. These things are direct shows of ‘force’ or authority, the weight of setting, and in order to overcome that you must have point 1, or 2.
Out of the 3, none have direct primacy over the others, but they interact and synergize to perform the function of moving plot.
This has been a heavily stressed goal in CoA. Plot. Most of us here have fun plotting, creating full and rich characters, and interacting with each other to tell stories that span anywhere from a week to several months. The turnover rate for characters seems to have been toned down more as characters seem to be getting more ‘ownership’ in the server setting, but it used to be you could write and lose a character within a month and still tell a ‘good’ story with them.
But people leave the server, we assume, because the server isn’t fun and their plots are not successful.
Why are people’s plots not successful?
The DM team have lowered the standard on Applications, which is nice and healthy. They have opened up factions to be easily joinable, and I think this is a good practice which should continue. However, I think the truth of the matter is that we’re holding to a system that has not quite been fully understood or acknowledged. It is the same philosophy of play, the same philosophy of ‘worth’ and ‘merit’ that has been trooped around this server for generations of players, and we either need to embrace it fully or think deeply about how the fundamentals of it could be changed - or if we even want those fundamentals to change at all.
If you aren’t successful at doing at least one of those three things, you are not going to have fun.
Why is Evil shitty right now? It lacks DM support. DMs have said multiple times (even within the last couple of few posts) that they’re trying to give Chaotic Evil some support that isn’t going to fail miserably.
Why do the ‘team good’ people complain about ‘team evil’? Team Evil is often a lot more mechanically powerful than they are. Many is the time that I’ve had to sit in on DMs calmly explaining to people in the DM area that they need to manage their expectations in certain circumstances.
Why do we discourage people from powerleveling to 12 and THEN starting to plot? Because we know in our deepest, darkest secret hearts that if that becomes/had become the norm, that nobody else would be able to compete with them. Hell Duckroll even wrote a guide on it which is too chillingly accurate of some peoples’ mentalities, and too true to comedic license to discuss serious issues, to be discarded as complete buffoonery.
Simply put; people cannot be having fun, if they’re consistently unsuccessful. This is why we are moving forward by attempting to address the lack in these three areas, and more perfectly bring them into alignment and harmony. We need people to be successful. Ideally, if you make a character on this server, you should at least see some small success – in whatever it is that you’re doing. If you just want to log on and quest, that’s fine – there should be things for you. But I want to say that these players are in the minority rather than the majority. Everybody wishes to smash quests every once in a while, for whatever reason, but most people are clever enough to realize that you can’t get by and have fun in Arabel by just smashing quests, you also need to interact with people. It’s a Roleplaying, not an Arena server.
Why is this important? We need to understand the way that our server works. Other servers have addressed these concerns in different ways and identifying the areas in which we are trying to make progress in concrete terms allows us to make better judgements about them. But wanting too much success is fine too; in order for there to be these successes, we need to be willing to make a good story out of it. That means, we all need to be more considerate of other people’s experiences on this server.
If I had to point out one of this server’s greatest strengths, I would say that it is the players who are considerate of the people that they are in conflict with. But, the reasons for the success of these players and characters have not been all that transparent and have been somewhat muddled with time and with rumor of DM favoritism, vague hearsay about somebody being PvP unbeatable, or resentment.
I think that new people quit most often because they don’t realize what they are doing wrong; it is supremely important to understand the demands placed on new players.
I think that a lot of our old players are quitting because they aren’t certain of how to interact with the system; they’re quitting because they don’t feel they matter and don’t understand how to proceed.
I don’t have an easy answer to that problem, but I would like it if we were all more aware of it.
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