Law + Punishment + Trials + enforcing = Making it work
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IMO, how about-
Any titled Noble (Sir, Lord, etc…) can judge minor-serious crimes. Capital Crimes require a council member. Generally, these positions are apped/earned to begin with, and it'd be easier to handle. Increases the prestige of the position by giving the individual actual power and privilege under the law.
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I'm afraid that doesn't fit the setting. Cormyr is not Cormanthor, there are judicial systems in place. It can't be as "adhoc" as that.
Giving more powers to the playerbase is fine, but that's just too OOC for the setting.
The major power of the nobility comes from the fact that they have more leeway -under- the law, not that they make it. Well, they do, but only in the council of nobles with the king.
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This just reminds me so much of what is going on in the U.S. military right now. The system has never been broke, these are almost entirely complaints about people. If the system isn't broke, don't muck up the system, deal with the people who muck it up. Suggestions on minor changes to make it more fun are awesome, but re-vamping the whole thing just because someone doesn't like how one PC did it just seems like a waste of time.
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Let me start by saying that I haven't logged in for 5 years, but still would like to share my thoughts after reading over the thread. I don't know anything about the current politics in Arabel or what is left of the old factions from when I played, but in general:
Can't most of this be handled IG?
Nothing is set in stone, the Militia and the PD's are not permanent or the only way to go. If somebody gets sentenced in an unfair manner that person's friends have the choice to revolt against the law enforcement. Push for a change, make the judges lose their jobs, defend the rights of the accused, start beating down militia men, start a revolution and so on, depending on what your PC would do. Even in case Arabel's most hated PC gets sentenced without enough proof, I could even see paladins and others with a high sense of justice stand up for the guy simply because the trial itself seemed unjust. If a PC with arresting powers does not do his job (still talking IC) it should be reflected in the way other PC's treat him and his faction.
I'm talking about paladins taking over the role of judges (forcefully or not), retainers with the favor of the people stepping in and starting to hold their own trials, evil gangs starting their own law enforcement and so on.
I've always found this kind of conflict more interesting than exploring dusty old ruins or fighting dragons. Wasn't Arabel divided into three or four different areas with their own law enforcements at some point after RWG started executing half orcs in the streets in the name of Bhaliir? Can't remember in detail.
I understand you're talking about an OOC aspect as well, but doesn't that simply boil down to the PVP rules?
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In v3 days all the guard factions were heavily supervised and players who abused their powers were booted. They also required a full application to have any rank above deputy and whatnot which what we have now is a bit looser than before. In regards to the KoTMs I don't recall any particular instance of a player abusing their judicial powers during my time in that faction in fact the biggest complaint that I can remember is that a certain KoTM kept letting criminals off. Also very much in favor to what Thune suggested above.
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All I ask for, is a simplified system. The more complicated it becomes, the less likely it is to work. Me and Gowl wanted a tribunal to judge all once. However, while that would have worked on a server with 200 people, we found that we could barely even find 3 people who could perform the judgement.
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The problem is, often enough the PCs who would get to become a judge are normally the PCs who really shouldn't become a judge.
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The problem is, often enough the PCs who would get to become a judge are normally the PCs who really shouldn't become a judge.
Weren't you the most recent PC with actual judge powers?
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Tribunal could be cool if you could deputize others into the position of "Defense" and "Prosecution"
Sort of force people to take sides. Tribunal listens to both, and makes their decision and FORCES YOU ALL TO JOIN THE PENAL LEGION!
Really though, the Tribunal would also require the ability to appeal based souly on character favoritism. Obvious this is unjust, but that is part of the balancing act. Loud people get heard.
I could see a Tribunal consisting of an impartial Judge (PC), the accused defense (appointed PC) and a prosecution (also PC). You could make it kinda brutal too, if the prosecution fails to get a conviction, force him to endure the punishment he is pushing for. Fails to present evidence of a theft and was arguing the accused must pay a fine? Gets fined. Also - this would help players build relationships, since the accused and defense would also carry the same burden/punishment.
Sorry O'Louth, I like complex wishy washy systems because they allow for less streamlined events. It would be fun if a prosecutor was pushing for, say, banishment of a criminal and in doing so got himself banished, then had to appeal the sentence because -now- he's decided it's an unlawful punishment.
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how is this topic four pages?
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KILL'EM ALL
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GUYZ
Lets stay Serial-us.
#LegionnaireRecruitmentForum
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2 words: Mathan Mirona.
No, seriously, need a judge, she/he could be a lot of fun!
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Tribunal could be cool if you could deputize others into the position of "Defense" and "Prosecution"
Sort of force people to take sides. Tribunal listens to both, and makes their decision and FORCES YOU ALL TO JOIN THE PENAL LEGION!
Really though, the Tribunal would also require the ability to appeal based souly on character favoritism. Obvious this is unjust, but that is part of the balancing act. Loud people get heard..
Do not render judgement right then and there.
judge listens, and then gives verdict in say, 2 days. that gives time for "interested parties" to give advising to judge on what is best .
(as in, jail my retainer and I pull my troops from defending caravans - or, put my malarbuddy in the Pit, and there is no meat this winter, or Dm chiming in with this is all bogus) -
I'd be okay with titled PCs (knights, nobility) being able to function as judges.
The consequences for getting it wrong would remain entirely IC, and can result in some pretty bad consequences for the judge PC. I'm a big fan of giving PCs a lot of freedom with the consequences of failure being rendered IC, as opposed to the OOC fears of being 'unfair.'
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Uhh, sorry. I've lost the point of all of this.
What is the issue again?
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I believe we're discussing fun/new/old/working ways to discipline folks that isn't just simple "You're guilty because im a Private and you're in black wearing a helm. give me 50 gold or get executed."
Obviously we get off topic, we could try making a new thread. Bluff: 15
I like the idea of nobles casting judgments, I also like the idea of there being a hearing, and less DM interaction. That being said, the days of waiting in jail cells are over and hopefully will never return. I think I'd rather just get executed than spend 10 hours waiting for someone to tell me I'm guilty or even innocent.
That's why I support the penal legion. Might actually get folks to regret their crimes, and possibly even accept the consequences faster. If their service time is suggested to be too long well, they can try and find a way out via appeals.
But honestly, that last bit is something I'd like to make happen IC. So I won't mention the Penal Legion again and will avoid discussing it from here on.
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Can I make a final request here? I have only been in the Militia a couple weeks now and I am already half burnt out from all the OOC complaints and arguments over and over and over again. When Privates made quick judgments based of a medieval system, people went OOC crazy and complained. When my character tried to make things more organized and modern like just to please the people who claimed unfair abuse of power, people went to the forums and OOC tells/IRC complaining over and over and over again. Please Please Please, for everyone's fun and sanity, remember this is a game. We will all try to be as immersive as possible, however, in the end it is a game we are trying to play too. So far in two weeks, no one was murdered, no one was executed, there was no pit sentences, no ridiculously over the top punishments… almost entirely minor fines. In the end, no ones story was ended, no one died, no one lost loot and no one had any MASSIVE kinks to their own plots. Did everyone get their perfect TEH WIN? Probably not, but is anything that happened in the last couple weeks REALLY worth 189042783247023 OOC tells/forum posts/IRC complaints? IC intrigue and conflict is good. I enjoy it and it is fun. OOC losing your mind over every minor detail in the game, however, is killing us.
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This thread has run its course, and it's going to be locked.
If there's any more OOC crap, come to us directly. I'll personally see to it that it's dealt with. I pass out severe consequences for people who make other people quit because they cannot remember this is a game to have fun in.
I've noticed people are taking far too many liberties with courtesy, and that stops now.