Where is our Character vs. Character direction going?
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An obvious suggestion would be to swap overpowered offensive items for defensive ones. But that would probably lead to people complaining about such items for making people effectively invincible.
I actually would like to see the server return to lower magic environ. Fights used to last for a while back then, people even managed to exchange insults while they were at it or to yield before getting curbstomped. Except for occasional wizards of course, you just had to accept those jerks' existence. :P
Another way to handle overpowered items would be to limit them to non PvP-themed. Those you can use during downtime, adventuring or PvE.
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Something that might help, is if we added in the protection from petrification spell alteration (which I fixed to actually WORK now, it used to only protect from the wizard spell, it protects from all sources of petrification now) onto say, potions, wands, items, etc, which might help you counter flesh to stone for instance. There are already counters for the death spells, but those potions are notoriously rare (they should probly just be buyable from the alchemist in Citadel and potion sellers in Old Town though)
'Returning the server to lower magic levels' isn't going to really happen.
While I personally am a complete sadist and would happily have people running about in mundane gear till they are level 7, and then drooling over a +1 vs kobolds chainshirt for their fighter when they defeat a half dragon were-lich-beholder, the team decided a while back we wanted more options in the way of loot, so removed the arbitrary (and admittedly, boring) +1 'cap' on item power level in favour of giving us more options for loot to be awesome, which I do like. Man was it hard to make the crafting gear actually have some kind of scale when +1 (general) was the 'limit'
Aside from that, it would take a ridiculous amount of effort to actually achieve that. And no one would actually like it in the end.
As long as there is a progression for characters and they don't got from zero to hero, it's all good.
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I don't mind the higher magic level. That can be worked around and doesn't take as much from everyone as the one shot buttons. Take for example, Tenser's transformation item, i'd rather see that than a one hit killer. It's a game changer for sure, it will make the one using it scary as hell, it can be enough to turn the tide in a mass pvp, BUT… it does give people the option to run away, try to dispel it, take the decision to fight the now uber monstrous piece of shit in front of you. Same with Greater spell breach, massively powerful item, can turn the tide, game changer... but not an insta win. Acid sheathes, even at high caster levels, hell, even shadow shields... i'd rather see all those things over one hit finishers. :)
Death ward is easily accessible at decent prices now that it's carried by easily accessible merchants. Protection from petrification can be accessed by a cool suit of armor as well as a spell alteration... not sure it needs to be more readily accessible.
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I think Amy and Unfie missed the topic here, abit. The issue is not good gear in general. The magic level on gear isn't really an issue. Yes, if you do harder quests, you get nicer stuff. Not being mechanically competent enough to handle said quests means you either won't have access to that loot or you need to learn mechanics better. Not being bothered with learning the mechanics part of the game is not a reason other people should get less, or you should get freebies. Being too busy telling a story to do harder quest is a very good reason, though, and DMs will reward you with comparable loots for it.
This topic, is about a few certain items with specific properties that cause PvP fights to be quick and fast, wich isn't fun for anyone, really. Unless you care more about winning than about narrative, in wich case you don't deserve the item anyway!
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CB, I know the feeling, I still remember how a single character destroyed the three evil talonites in the sewers by using consumables… but I digress (and it was not instawin, I have to admit it, it was boring but not instawin).
@Amy:
Well the trouble is the DM team have increased the item magic level while keeping the character level the same which of course unbalances things in favor of those that spam quests to grab to op magic items for the win in pvp.
high magic vs low level = items are king.
low magic vs low level =builds are king
low magic vs high level =wizards rule.We had low magic low level for years with a few items like attuned gems there to give an edge to some encounters but those edges were expensive and demanded others helped out.
Now all you do is run through scripted quests and your all set without needing to find someone that has focused in a certain skill set and having to spend all your riches on them.I don't mind the new setting so much it make questing a shit load easier I hardly have to concentrate any more but it has broken PvP which is a shame.
I tend to agree with this. Also…
@Khamal:
Only the handful of players who can PvP effectively actively seek out these powerful items for PvP and win.
Only a handful of players know where to find such things in quests and usually it is quest spamming till the loot (or consumable) is dropped due to random roll from a known table.
And this is why I -recently- started to loathe PvP (not that I ever liked it but my level of likeliness dropped a lot lately).
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Look guys. The people that get these items don't fault the players who don't or don't enjoy PvP so much, so let's try and keep the same OOC consideration, yeah? There's no need to BLAME people or ostracize them for being good at the game and being able to find nice and cool stuff. We're not here to bash other people's playstyles or talk about bitterness over past PvP encounters.
This thread was made to address a few items that end up in the hands of players who pretty well collectively agree shouldn't exist, so we're going to see what we can do about it.
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I don't get your post Almadyr, i am suggesting less options available to make PvP boring and are you bashing my suggestion or just a sore loser? It was boring? Jesus man, i could go on and on how your own pvp using slay living on FD in every encounter to discourage people from pvp-ing you was not interesting either? I was the only one left who wanted to fight you guys because you just used high DC slay livings for everything, but i guess that' much more interesting?
I'm saying that these items do not add anything, but you agree with me and YET feel the need to bash it at the same time? Do you even understand the point of my post?
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The people who love PvP tend to get into PvP much more often, and more often than not, they win their conflicts. Two things would normally happen then. They get bored at the lack of competition. Or they finally kick it after a prolonged conflict.
There are loot problems, yes. But toning down loot does not address the problems. People who like to PvP will always be better at PvP. People who prefer to tell their stories through other mediums, will continue to be on the losing end. Arabel's free PvP structure conflicts with its claim that it equally caters to all different playstyles. It does not. If you examine who gets into PvP, I think you will find around a revolving door of around ten or so players who contribute or take part in a vast majority of PvP in the server. This is their playstyle, and we should respect that. It is exciting, and that is what they want, excitement.
Over the past year, I have seen that the lack of competition has become pretty fierce. This is the result of the common practice of PvP heavy players banding together into groups. The result is that there is, for all intents and purposes, few PCs to oppose them. This has led to a a third result that has become more and more common: A falling out that causes the group to kill each other.
In the past, it was considered normal and acceptable for a brief 5 minutes of PvP to ruin 5 months of adventure. I disagree on many levels with this. In very few cases, DMs have stepped in to remove items that have been earned by other PCs from the victor of PvP, but this is much rarer an occurrence. I personally believe PvP has been overused before to allow one side to tell their story at the expense of the other, and that is something I cannot agree with. PvP has an important and vital role in a server that seems to be built from the ground up to pit PCs against one another, and which is encouraged by the enviroment PCs find themselves in.
One might even argue that CoA is built to force PvP. You do not have a choice as to whether or not you wish to partake in it, except if you want to sit in the spire. Leaving the Citadel immediately places you into foreign and often dangerous territory. This seems to have been designed into Arabel from the very beginning. It is obvious that the DM Team values PvP, and believes that it enriches the server. We should all learn how to fight In PvP, even if we do not like it. But equally, the server must cater to those who do not like it, or find it distasteful, by providing balancing options for those who regularly find themselves on the losing end.
I've rarely if ever won any significant PvP. It feels like a five year losing streak. It has put me off PvP entirely for some time now, though I never liked it before.
TL;DR: PvP should always be used to push the story, not to end it.
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Addendum: I feel that perhaps we do our friends who like PvP a disservice by not providing them with additional competition, to the point where, as I mentioned above, they get so bored they eventually start fighting and killing themselves. I feel that equalizers could be used in DM supervised PvP to make PvP more challenging to the ones who excel at it, and give those who are terrible at it a fighting chance.
Because nothing demoralizes and crushes people than not having a fighting chance.
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I do not understand… are people bashing the suggestion because it's about pvp or are people agreeing with it? It revolves around changing up items to BE MADE LESS AVAIALBLE TO THOSE WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO GET THEM AND LESS POWERFUL FOR LESS insta-win. Not to went general pvp frustrations about this and that ... this literally makes it harder for those who already hold an edge to "roflstomp" the rest and YET, even if you agree with me, you don't agree with me?
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Some good points and some bad ones, Thune. I have to say this " I personally believe PvP has been overused before to allow one side to tell their story at the expense of the other, and that is something I cannot agree with" I don't really agree with. There is no one story, it is a collective and ongoing story. It is realistic that you might get ambushed by crazy bandits and have difficulty. CoA is ONE story, with many different perspectives and tellers. All can play a part and all can affect it. When people become more accepting of other's playstyles and learn to roll with other people better just because they are beating them, that is likely when you will see more interesting conflicts and less of the players who are good at PvP just trouncing the others.
Nothing makes for worse PvP-OOC consideration than beating someone and listening to endless whining about how it was unfair this way or that, or them not going along with it. OOC consideration for PvP goes both ways. I think it's important to note too that these "PvP heavy" players don't intentionally go after dudes for no reason that aren't heavy PvP focused, especially if they feel they have an unfair advantage over them.
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I don't get your post Almadyr, i am suggesting less options available to make PvP boring and are you bashing my suggestion or just a sore loser? It was boring? Jesus man, i could go on and on how your own pvp using slay living on FD in every encounter to discourage people from pvp-ing you was not interesting either? I was the only one left who wanted to fight you guys because you just used high DC slay livings for everything, but i guess that' much more interesting?
I'm saying that these items do not add anything, but you agree with me and YET feel the need to bash it at the same time? Do you even understand the point of my post?
Dear friend, I think your post is offensive, in particular the last sentence.
I don't know if I can be considered a good or bad loser (I think this vary from time to time) but for sure I do not consider coming out of a pvp fight alive winning a pvp encounter. I had my share of fun followed by death and I didn't enjoy a lot many instances where I came out alive.
But anyway, the idea I tried to convey was that yes, I agree, let's make pvp more fun by reducing the impact of one-shot-win consumables.
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I think the best way to limit insta-win consumables is to try to stay away from level 6 spells and beyond for the most part. Things get pretty imbalanced around there. In most circumstances I'd curl into a fetal position at the first sight of FtS/IGMS. Finger of Death would put me on life support. I think the server could do without them existing. People want BIG rewards for fighting dangerous creatures in the Underdark, but when has the Underdark ever been anything but unforgiving and unrewarding, and why should that change?
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The less people care about winning or losing and the more OOC courtesy is accosted for both sides and whether you're on the winning side or the losing side, the more people will start to enjoy PvP encounters for the conflict as opposed to becoming bitter, especially when players begin to feel entitled to a "Win".
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Get back on topic or this gets locked.
Also, stop attacking each other or this gets locked (I don't give a giant space monkey who 'started it')
I would never give a giant space monkey to anyone though so…. maybe it's that I don't give a (insert swear word)
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While I have not played in CoA for several months, and merely passing through, I stumbled onto this topic and decided to give my own input.
I would first like to emphasize that when considering this topic you should separate first between FD and what I like to call playful conflict PvP. Such items should never be used for FD/Perma-Death at all, as all they do is rob a player of their chance to fight back for the lives of their beloved character.As to the items themselves for the use of conflict PvP, I actually dont think they need to be removed or changed and I will explain why:
These items are actually very rarely used by the powers that be in the PvP world(CB, Dobby, SinisterPlank,…) as they enjoy the thrill of the PvP itself and the challenge. However, such items can often be used by the less PvP inclined or initiated as means to counter or foil the plans of the above mentioned PvP experts. It actually balances the playing field slightly, which is why I think these individuals are concerned(Apologies if this offends anyone), and more so this is the reason why such items should stay.
What I would suggest however is adding to this powerful item an equally strong drawback. I still remember the MG Warding rods that when used could pulverize their foes(Lycans and Undead) but doing so could also risk you getting hurt or killed or worse. Add a random drawback to such items, which might leave their user weakened and vulnerable when the losing side's reinforcements suddenly appear. Random factor will make it less probable to counter the drawback.
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While I have not played in CoA for several months, and merely passing through, I stumbled onto this topic and decided to give my own input.
I would first like to emphasize that when considering this topic you should separate first between FD and what I like to call playful conflict PvP. Such items should never be used for FD/Perma-Death at all, as all they do is rob a player of their chance to fight back for the lives of their beloved character.As to the items themselves for the use of conflict PvP, I actually dont think they need to be removed or changed and I will explain why:
These items are actually very rarely used by the powers that be in the PvP world(CB, Dobby, SinisterPlank,…) as they enjoy the thrill of the PvP itself and the challenge. However, such items can often be used by the less PvP inclined or initiated as means to counter or foil the plans of the above mentioned PvP experts. It actually balances the playing field slightly, which is why I think these individuals are concerned(Apologies if this offends anyone), and more so this is the reason why such items should stay.
What I would suggest however is adding to this powerful item an equally strong drawback. I still remember the MG Warding rods that when used could pulverize their foes(Lycans and Undead) but doing so could also risk you getting hurt or killed or worse. Add a random drawback to such items, which might leave their user weakened and vulnerable when the losing side's reinforcements suddenly appear. Random factor will make it less probable to counter the drawback.
While I agree with and appreciate the SPIRIT of your post, the issue is that outside of the top handful of players, nobody else has the ability to get these items. So it doesn't level the playing field, it makes it even more unbalanced.
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Yeah I have never seen other players outside the already mechanically competant with these items.
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It would be easier just to have death stuff across the board require an outside finisher to FD, like always being subdue. This way PvE encounters can be more fun because you can revive your friend that got unlucky against the Bodak as well as PvP one-shot magic ambushes. It also means the DM can go a little more ham with death magic monsters. ;)
This might create hardship for sorcerer/wizard, that's acceptable because we could still buff their hp to 6/level and raise the magic level for other classes indirectly by consumables. This could make a fairly reasonable and accessible overall class balance for PvP and PvE.
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Yeah I have never seen other players outside the already mechanically competant with these items.
I can honestly say i haven't met to many of these incompetent players that some keep harping on about,the items drop on high level quests those that spam said quests each reset get them.
It's really that simple nothing to do with who knows mechanics,players spam quests constantly to get certain rewards and only stop spamming them when the item(s) they are farming the quest for appears.Change these scripted farm-able rewards to something else or just gold and that fixes the problem of the items.
Also +2 used to be the server standard back in V3 as you could make +2 weapons and gear but it was massively expensive and required level 12 characters to make +2 isn't new,just alot easier to get it now.