Withdrawing from Combat
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moved to it's own thread.
Summary of discussion so far, my initial comment not included, as Dreeken-Korin worded it better.
@someone:
Never run to an opponent, always walk when you get close. Never run from an opponent either, unless you have points invested in tumble - walk away (but not backwards, that'll get you in trouble).
No, this is an exploit too. You don't "walk" away from a monster trying to kill you in real life. You run like hell.
The sole exception is if the monster is currently focusing its attacks on someone else (ie you were in melee but flanking it). Otherwise, you're exploiting to avoid an AoO.
If that's the rule on CoA so be it, but DnD wise it's as follows:
WithdrawWithdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.
If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed.
Note that despite the name of this action, you don’t actually have to leave combat entirely.
In addition to the other examples given, there's also the 5ft step in PnP that does not provoke AoO. I'm no expert in martial arts, but from what I've learned with practicing with a hand and a half, you can easily step back without turning your back to your opponent and still keep your guard up.
I've always presumed that the "don't walk backwards" applies to situations where you are fighting the monster alone, and attempt to escape by walking backwards and thus avoiding attacks (which is exploit) as opposed to actually fighting the monster -with- someone else. Tap the backwards button once or twice, and the monster usually refocuses it's attacks on the other person (which makes sense, since if it did not, and instead followed you, it would basically leave itself open for your friend). For example, to disengage, drink a potion, and then get back into the fray.
Is there a misunderstanding in here, or is the above situation really an exploit?
@Mr.:
We've explained this so many times, I think its almost insane people are still not getting it!
You can disengage in a fight if the monster is focused on other PCs by walking away to avoid the AoO. If the monster though chooses to follow you, you should stop walking and start running. If you keep walking, it is now an exploit.
If the monster is focused on you, then "walking" away causes the monster to lose an AoO it should have (because you're the only person its fighting) and you should run away because you can't "strategically withdraw" from something that is focused exclusively on you. If you fight a monster alone, and keep "walking" its an exploit.
The easy, peasy rule of thumb. If the monster is following you while you try to disengage, start running or keep fighting.
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Maybe I don't get something about the mechanics..
In this situation:
@Moloch:If the monster is focused on you, then "walking" away causes the monster to lose an AoO it should have (because you're the only person its fighting) and you should run away because you can't "strategically withdraw" from something that is focused exclusively on you. If you fight a monster alone, and keep "walking" its an exploit.
Why would the monster be entitled to a AoO in this situation?
rear or flank attacks, yes. but why a AoO ?The character is simply taking "Move" as the combat action.
Assuming they move directly away, they don't move into threatened squares.
They will never actually disengage, since the monster will follow them, striking at their back, (with rear attack bonus).On the other hand, taking more than one step backwards -IS- a exploit, we understand that. In that situation, yes, one must run.
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Because you can't "move" away from a monster that is fighting you and no one else. If we were boxing, you couldn't take five steps backwards to disengage from me, I'd merely keep punching you while taking five steps forward. AoO.
There really isn't much to discuss here though. If you want to get away from something during a fight, run away from it. If you have buddies trying to distract it, you can try to take a few careful steps back-but if the monster tries to keep attacking you, its time to run.
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I think the problem is, if you are fighting a monster one on one, it makes no sense that it wouldn't keep hitting you, but the ai doesn't let it target a walking creature.
The general rule of thumb I use is If we are fighting melee in a group, and i need to heal, I will walk two steps out of the fight and give myself a chance to heal. If the monster follows me, like moloch said, I run.
edit Do you have the forum directly linked to your mind?
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Why would the monster be entitled to a AoO in this situation?
rear or flank attacks, yes. but why a AoO ?The character is simply taking "Move" as the combat action.
Assuming they move directly away, they don't move into threatened squares.
They will never actually disengage, since the monster will follow them, striking at their back, (with rear attack bonus).On the other hand, taking more than one step backwards -IS- a exploit, we understand that. In that situation, yes, one must run.
Actually, in PnP, you take an AoO when you -leave- a threatened square. Since the NWN engine supports neither the 5-foot step nor the withdraw/disengage actions, because they make more sense in terms of turn-based rounds. it is stuck with walk/run.
Actually, even if you are engaged in group fight with several of your allies, if the monster is targeting you, whether you run or not, it will likely run after you, and draw an AoO from your buddies. Being hit will likely make it shift aggro, but I hope it is not considered an exploit to run and induce AoO in this fashion.
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NWN Mechanics question:
If you were moving back (purely as per what Mr.Moloch details as an exploit) does the enemy still get in its normal attack(s)? Or does it just dumbly follow the PC with out attacking? If it still attacks wouldn't it basically be getting an attack either way - but in this case staying with the player? If it doesn't attack then yes, I see thats a pretty blatant exploit.
In PnP 3.5 D&D I could take a 5 ft step back, then move my full movement. The enemy could then move and charge me - still getting an attack at full BAB, but getting no AoO.
I've not tried this really (I tend to fight and die or run and die) so I'm not too certain on the details of the mechanics.
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NWN Mechanics question:
If you were moving back (purely as per what Mr.Moloch details as an exploit) does the enemy still get in its normal attack(s)? Or does it just dumbly follow the PC with out attacking? If it still attacks wouldn't it basically be getting an attack either way - but in this case staying with the player? If it doesn't attack then yes, I see thats a pretty blatant exploit.
In PnP 3.5 D&D I could take a 5 ft step back, then move my full movement. The enemy could then move and charge me - still getting an attack at full BAB, but getting no AoO.
I've not tried this really (I tend to fight and die or run and die) so I'm not too certain on the details of the mechanics.
You cannot take a 5-foot step in a round in which you also take normal movement.
You can however do a withdraw action, which basically means taking a fullround action to cover your arse and move up to twice your movementspeed without provoking an attack of oppertunity from the FIRST square you leave. Monster/NPC can charge, making a single attack and possibly provoking attack of oppertunities itself, or make a double move after you if fighting another person using a withdraw action itself to chase you and not get an attack in on you immediately.Keep in mind we're talking DnD PnP mechanics here.
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Enemies can't attack when you "walk". That's why its an exploit.
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Wouldn't the walking cause the PC in question to lose AC due to being "Surprised" as if they were out of combat, or is that more of a cool down effect?
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Its an exploit where enemies can't attack you. Do not do it. There really isn't anything to discuss here! :wink:
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So if you were weakened and can't run, you're forced to fight until death unless the mob stops attacking you? Better stock up on restores, because many mobs have attacks that lessen strength.
BTW, does using taunt change aggro?
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Yeah, does it? I notice a lot of times when you use taunt in combat, you, or I anyways, have to click on the upper left icon in my que and cancel my attacking else the taunt will never happen and my character will continue to attack as normal. Does it offer AoO also? Because most of the time, I don't see it.
Anyways, as for the topic…I'm guessing it's a Bioware bug since enemies attack you if you're walking along the road, which means walking itself cannot cause the enemy to not attack you. Oh well. Let's just listen to Moloch and not do it. xD
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Because you can't "move" away from a monster that is fighting you and no one else. If we were boxing, you couldn't take five steps backwards to disengage from me, I'd merely keep punching you while taking five steps forward. AoO.
There really isn't much to discuss here though. If you want to get away from something during a fight, run away from it. If you have buddies trying to distract it, you can try to take a few careful steps back-but if the monster tries to keep attacking you, its time to run.
Okay, here's the situation:
M
XYM is the monster.
X is the PC tanking it.
Y is a barbarian flanking the monster.X is down to Injured and wants to retreat to heal up safely.
Now, what we do in PnP in my crusty memory, and I might be wrong here mind you, is this: X takes a 5-foot step (or was it 3-foot, I forget) and M gets NO AOO. Then X runs a bit, now far away enough from M to not get AOO for running. X heals while Y briefly tanks and goes back into battle.
Now, in NWN, it was always understood by me that this 5-foot (or was it called 3-foot?) step is simulated by walking away during melee a little, little Y take over tanking, then running, instead of straight out running and eating AOO.
It'd make perfect sense to me that they imported this PnP mechanic since no fighter I know in PnP will eat an AOO on purpose if he can avoid it by a brief walk! Or 5/3-foot step. Not an exploit there, why'd it be here? We all know PnP and NWN are very different, but come on, this just seems very intended. Nobody is talking about the "walk backwards" exploit here.
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I suppose if you think about this in relation to a PvP fight, you can understand why its an exploit. The tactic that Jasede explained, while I'd always considered perfectly fine, is nothing you would ever do a group PvP fight. Players/DMs aren't going to randomly drop off of the tank if he's at near death, they're going to pursue him, especially if he isn't fleeing at full speed.
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Well, the off-tank could try to draw "aggro" so to speak by running around next to the monster to force AoO which sometimes causes it to switch automatically which can buy you a round, though this could maybe be considered an exploit too?
Anyway, I just saw Moloch's explanation in the other thread, and now understand that he means what I described is actually okay, providing the monster switches targets to Y as soon as X moves. If it chases X, however, X should either run or fight, or else you're exploiting how walking works because it really does sort of screw up attacks.
So disregard my wall of text!
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1. True, walking backwards to disengage is an exploit.
2. I don't see how you can "disengage" carefully without facing the person you are fighting. Look at #1.
3. Not sure which pnp it is, but a 5 foot step usually takes up your move actions for the round, unless you devote an entire turn to actually run away at x2 or x4 your speed or whatever it was, which would allow the enemy an AoO.
Look at it this way though. Moloch, who is a DM, is saying that it is an exploit. If there was a way to get rid of said exploit, don't you think the DMs would have done something about it, rather then just leaving it for future people to possibly exploit? I don't think it's a matter of "No, we DMs don't want to give players that option." It's more of a "We can't script that sort of thing."
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It's not just the AOO. Have you tried casting a touch spell on a person walking away from you constantly? Your PC keeps running a bit, then walking a bit, then repeat; never reaches the target of the spell. I think it is the same with attacking: if you are walking and someone is running to hit you, it makes sense for them to catch up and cleave you in half from behind.
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Well, the off-tank could try to draw "aggro" so to speak by running around next to the monster to force AoO which sometimes causes it to switch automatically which can buy you a round, though this could maybe be considered an exploit too?
Yes. Purposefully drawing an AoO is also an exploit. Exploits are usually obvious though, if its not something you could pull off against a player in PvP, its a pretty obvious AI exploit.
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Enemies can't attack when you "walk". That's why its an exploit.
This is the key.
I thought they only could not attack when you walked BACKWARDS, that they could still attack when you walked forward - thats why I was so careful to always mention I wasn't talking about back-walking.
if they can't attack if a target is walking forward in that case, yes, i fully agree it is a exploit, and I'm sorry for keeping the discussion going based on my lack of NWN mechanics knowledge