Community Transperency on DM Decision
-
@--lizard-man--:
…
My personal opinion remains that this is the exception, not the rule, when it comes to punishments. I don't think a public forum or the sort for this or other bannings/punishments would generate the sort of result you're after.
I can't think of anything else to say on the subject, just reiterate what I have said - it is opening up a can of worms, and if this is the exception, not the rule, then that's better left not done.
Dito. Don't underestimate what a huge additional punishment this kind of public listing is for a player who knows and is known by the community. Personally, I think it's a worse punishment than a character-deletion. It's a sting that stays.
-
@--lizard-man--:
…
My personal opinion remains that this is the exception, not the rule, when it comes to punishments. I don't think a public forum or the sort for this or other bannings/punishments would generate the sort of result you're after.
I can't think of anything else to say on the subject, just reiterate what I have said - it is opening up a can of worms, and if this is the exception, not the rule, then that's better left not done.
Dito. Don't underestimate what a huge additional punishment this kind of public listing is for a player who knows and is known by the community. Personally, I think it's a worse punishment than a character-deletion. It's a sting that stays.
Maybe it'd be more incentive not to cheat in the first place?
-
If we accept that DMs are the umpires/refrees of the server we (the rest of the players) don't need any explaination about their decisions. There's nothing to be discussed.
Either you trust them or you don't.
And if you don't trust DMs decisions why are you playing here?
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that it will be a waste of time.
-
If an issue comes up and it isn't discussed and cleared up, it's only likely to increase feelings of mistrust and alienate players from DMs.
These arn't the medieval ages where questioning the actions of those in authority is equivelent to some sort of treason. Someone who thinks a DM was too harsh or wants to discuss a matter that's gnawing at the back of their minds is not automatically a radical; although I didn't get the impression anyone doing so was doing it with any particular malice anyways.
While i'm against a public bannings-forum, i'm quite decidedly for encouraging players not to sit on bad mojo and approach others about them and try to clear them up.
As to more incentive not to cheat - you might get as much from making it a bannable offence to conduct any sort of cheating or to not immediately report seeing someone else cheating, but again, that sort of spartan-conduct is more likely to be counter-productive I think.
-
And if you don't trust DMs decisions why are you playing here?
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that it will be a waste of time.
This is a server with a high level of DM presence. One of the highest I have ever experienced on any server. And I really like it. The reason I like it is because I know they spend their time here making the place better for us, more fun, fair and safe (well, us as players, not our characters).
If the players can't have faith in their DM team to do things in their best interest (the playerbase as a whole, not individuals), then there is really no sense in playing here. Because we all play here for the fun. If all you do is being angry with the management, you're not having fun. If you talk about it with others, they are not likely to have fun either with your complaints, whether they agree with you or not.
-
Listing the stuff on the public forum wouldnt be mandatory right?
So, if something like the situation outlined by Yardsale happened again, at the point where it started wasting his time, he could post on the public forum, and get back to what he was doing, and we'd have more socketable items and stuff.
-
The purpose of this forum would be to lessen cries of DM mistreatment as much as it is to provide transparency into bannings - if it wasn't mandatory, that would only lead to a new set of problems.
I don't think that regular punishments should be listed (disciplinary actions such as character deletions, for example) either, just bannings.
The general consensus here seems to be that there aren't any players that would mind it, so long as it doesn't make more work for the DM team.
Before I came to this server (and indeed, NWN roleplaying, only been MUDs for me until this place) the reviews I'd read about it were hugely polarized - people either hating it - almost invariably blaming the DMs, or people with huge respect for the DMs and the players here - no-one who'd placed any comments seemed to be of any other opinion other than love or hate. Although I expected the polarized opinions to some degree (people don't post on forums to say 'meh' in general), and I expected especially the negative ones from people who were banned to be placed elsewhere, it did colour my opinion of the DM team before I'd even started, and I was wary.
After a week here, I ran into the Gurb - my first character had ended up in the capital crimes section of jail in a DM event that I'd thought was a lighthearted romp, rather than anything serious. My character had claimed to be a noble (to protect a friend) and fully deserved to be there. As I sat bored in the jail cell for the next few hours (and the next few hours of the next day - I hadn't realized at that point I wasn't getting let out so hadn't rolled up a new character) I wrote an app in, after thinking, hey wouldn't it be cool if he was a noble? (I hadn't considered it before, but was bored in a cell and honestly didn't understand the application process in the slightest at that stage).
Now - in hindsight this looks bad - really bad, to anyone looking at it from the other end. The obvious assumption is that I was trying to trick my way around the system - I guess Gurb flagged it, and I got told in IRC to have a chat with him when he was free.
Here was the problem - the only info I'd had on the DMs up to that point was the highly enjoyable event leading to my arrest and detainment, and the information from places like nwvault which had coloured my opinion negatively - I went in hot, but made a point of remaining civil and polite, at the least, Gurb was clearly not having a good day either - in addition he probably thought I was trying to cheat in hindsight like I said, but even with this bad start, we were both civil, reasonable, and things got sorted out. (For the record, I was wrong, Gurb was right :oops: ). The negative start could've been avoided completely by having a forum like this because I wouldn't have had a mistrust of the DMs, and I'd have gone into that conversation confused rather than irritated.
My point is that I could have easily left after a week with a completely wrong picture of the DMs if I had not been civil to Gurb because of my presumptions or if I was personally more hotheaded than I am, all for lack of having a DM perspective on bannings to look at (and only a lot of angry banned players saying a similar thing).
Take a look at a lot of the frankly bull**** comments made about Arabel on NWNVault here. (I see a bunch of names I know in there, good on you guys for standing up for the place! Remember that for anyone doing research on places to RP that's one of the first things they'll see).
-
The purpose of this forum would be to lessen cries of DM mistreatment as much as it is to provide transparency into bannings -
Since posted by dms, edited by dms and with no possibility for PC to show their opinions (which would lead to endless chat you said that he said that I said blah blah blah), unless support by screenshots/fireproof evidence the cries of mismanagement won't be lessened.
Transparency on banning yes.
But still the main question is: either you trust the DMs (and you don't need any additional forum/proof/any other thing) or you don't and then you can go and play somewhere else.
There cannot be a "support forum" for umpires decisions. Either you accept the decisions or you are not in the league.
There's no "appeal jury" outside the DM team, in particular a forum cannot be used as such.
-
I get that it won't make a difference to established players, but for new players it lets people see another side to the story. Seriously, for me personally, something from that side - anything, would have helped lessen my concerns.
If you really don't trust what's written there that's one thing, but originally as a new player you have to understand that I didn't have any information from the DM side here excepting a couple of very old posts from Emu on the vault. A lot of those posts on there are from people who played for a week or two only, then left.
-
Maybe rather have a summary in your in-game journal about how violations of the rules are handled and what is expected of players if a DM sees the need to talk to them about a possible exploit?
Similar to the bits about what is expected of clerics etc.. New players may not pay much attention to forums. And the forums are rather -huge- in any case. I know there is already information about PvP, roleplaying, etc. but a description of what behavior will usually result in what kind of punishment might be more helpful than a for other reasons highly problematic shame-thread on the forums.
-
On that site I don't see many bad comments on bannings per se but I see many on (supposed) DM favouritism.
I see your point but I feel that more disclosure on DM actions won't make any difference for the new players.
-
Yes, but I can tell you that over 80% of the bad comments are from people we've banned.
-
I assumed that was the case when I was new, I'm certain that is the case now, but that's still the first point of research people go to (if they're going to research a place at all) followed by these forums.
The whole point of my posts have been that there's nothing available from the DM side at the moment at all - so that's all there is to go on for a newcomer. It'd only effect reasonable and patient newcomers anyway (reasonable enough to read both sides, patient enough to do the research).
Even if it adds one new good player it'll have been worth it from my perspective (a banning list, not a punishments list), and if it has the potential to reduce angry predjudiced new players from mouthing off at the DMs, again, even by just a few, then that's even more worth it.
-
Haha. The vault. It is sadly where most people get their info on various servers, but I'd imagine that most people (like you) can read between the lines on the vitriolic posts.
-
I gotta say, reading those comments are fairly upsetting, those comments probley take a fair shair of new players away. More of us should sign up there and post our postive experinces with Arabel.
-
I gotta say, reading those comments are fairly upsetting, those comments probley take a fair shair of new players away. More of us should sign up there and post our postive experinces with Arabel.
That would be very nice of you all.
-
Yes, but I can tell you that over 80% of the bad comments are from people we've banned.
I noticed that, too!
Provided some lulz, in some cases. In others, it just made me a little sad.
-
False information that spreads like this is why I'd be -for- a forum that just simply lists the reasons and situations for a ban.
I like this. For me, it would do two things: 1) Nothing opposes rumour better than the truth. 2) I want to know what is an exploit so I can avoid doing it! Having said that, I don't want to see people banned for exploits unless the exploit is repeated after advice is given.
@HarryMcScary:
we're not unreasonable or unforgiving, but we do have to draw a line with offensive, insulting behavior.
And this.
If you cheat, you hurt the whole community by cheating. DMs must respond to that or the entire integrity of the game system collapses. Its why baseball has umpires. CoA has DMs. Just like baseball though, you can disagree with an umpire's decision, do so politely and calmly and they may listen or if they don't you can talk to the commission (or approach the whole DM team with an e-mail)–but if you start cursing at us, throwing a fit, cursing at other players--you'll be tossed out of the game.
This as well.
Umpires use discression. Soccer and many other team sports have a Card system that might work. Umpires/Referee's might verbally warn a player to stop doing something and then move on. For blatant cheating, many incidents are resolved by a Yellow Card. The player knows he's on a warning for a period of time (CoA might consider this a week/month) A Red Card could be considered as a Boot/Ban for a Week to cool off, knowing that you'll be allowed back on. Not sure of this would work, but it might, with some adaptation.
However, abuse of players and DMs is something else.
For me, the mechanics of the game are sometimes a puzzle. Some DM's have gently pointed out an exploit to me and asked me not to do it again. I've accepted that, appologised and then, when I've seen others do the same, offered them advice saying something along the lines of "When I did that, a DM told me it was an exploit" and then left the player to make his own choices as to his behavior. I have valued other players pointing out things to me and so I do the same. If a player heeds polite advice, great, if he/she doesn't, then I back off and allow the DM's to do their thing. ParasiticNematode pointed out an exploit to me on a particular quest that came from OOC knowlege of where the enemy comes from.
I've had a DM kill a character before now for item transfer when I was a new player. I've not done it since. Where a DM points out an exploit to me, I avoid doing it again. I don't debate a DM ruling that something is an exploit. I don't know enough of the game mechanics to question such rulings.
I don't want to cheat. I try not to cheat. If I don't know something is an exploit, I want a DM/Player to point it out to me, and I'll stop. The only issue I think is, I might repeatedly perform an action and get a DM-Kill for cheating when I wasn't even aware that what I was doing was cheating! My question to the DMs would be - how can you know a player is unaware that they are cheating rather than exploiting on purpose. I guess that's the tough one. The former is better handled by advice and a warning; the latter is better handled by a DM-Kill or in the worse case, a Ban.
For me there is a hierarchy of punishments/talking to's that I'd love to see:
Yellow Card
Red Card
Some of this might be workable, some is already done by DM's.
I'd like to see a forum that lists a Ban and the reason for the banning. But I'd reall like to see more temporary bans (not listed on this forum) rather than permament ones. -
I don't want to cheat. I try not to cheat. If I don't know something is an exploit, I want a DM/Player to point it out to me, and I'll stop. The only issue I think is, I might repeatedly perform an action and get a DM-Kill for cheating when I wasn't even aware that what I was doing was cheating!
The nail on the head right there. I think most of the controversy that started this in the first place was over an over-reaction to this very thing.
-
:
I don't want to cheat. I try not to cheat. If I don't know something is an exploit, I want a DM/Player to point it out to me, and I'll stop. The only issue I think is, I might repeatedly perform an action and get a DM-Kill for cheating when I wasn't even aware that what I was doing was cheating!I used to live in constant fear of this very scenario.
Thankfully in times when I have done something without knowing it a DM has been courteous enough to inform me politely that what I was doing was against the rules for the server. I would then apologize, move on and never do it again.
It's the people who ignore warnings, blantantly abuse the system and/or have a bad attitude that get into deep trouble.