A different approach to Quests
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Death needs to be significant.
One solution is not to die! :wink:
However, in all seriousness, in my month or so as a DM and many times before that as a player, I have seen player after player attack insane odds when there were alternative approaches almost being thrown at them by a DM.
One example:
At the end of a long quest, the players had their loot, had beaten the Boss and were on their way home with the artifact for the quest giver. A party of bandits waylayed them from the ridges, where the players could not approach and could only deal with them by ranged attack. The party set to to remove this threat. As they removed bandits, more were spawned and two or three times the DM emoted More and more Bandits come to the ridge. All the players had to do was run past this threat and be on their way home for tea and crumpets. There was no loot to be had, no purpose for the players to kill random bandits, yet two out of the five PCs died, because they stayed to shoot these NPCs.Bravery in the face of death when there is a defined goal, such as vast wealth, glory, justice, obtaining a vital artifact, is all to be applauded. This is what we play for. However, I have see a propensity of players just to hack&Slash when they see Red NPCs/Monsters without any thought. I really adore watching players play Brave characters, standing alone on the bridge against the enemy while their collegues recover or other such heroic deed, but many times, I see players just killing and often dying, because its the "no-brainer" option, and this makes me such a sad puppy.
On the alternative side, I was delighted to watch a party enter the South Arabel a few nights ago. They were attempting to recover certain items. Monsters guarded the locations where these items were. The party moved with care, and at times, fought the monsters. Other times, they sent in a stealthed or invis'd companion to loot the location, leaving the monsters alone. At another juncture, the party was attempting to withdraw from an area and there were two options. One involved fighting three or four monsters, and the other involved retracing their steps. The party discussed it and chose the latter option, because it seemed wise. It was a joy to watch alternative approaches being taken.
More than once, I've abandoned a DM quest as a DM, because it just became boring as players charge anything that they can kill and gain XP from, even when that monster/npc has been attempting to speak to them.
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@The:
More than once, I've abandoned a DM quest as a DM, because it just became boring as players charge anything that they can kill and gain XP from, even when that monster/npc has been attempting to speak to them.
I hate this too. Has gotten me killed on DM quests more than anything else.
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@The:
Death needs to be significant.
However, in all seriousness, in my month or so as a DM and many times before that as a player, I have seen player after player attack insane odds when there were alternative approaches almost being thrown at them by a DM.
One example:
At the end of a long quest, the players had their loot, had beaten the Boss and were on their way home with the artifact for the quest giver. A party of bandits waylayed them from the ridges, where the players could not approach and could only deal with them by ranged attack. The party set to to remove this threat. As they removed bandits, more were spawned and two or three times the DM emoted More and more Bandits come to the ridge. All the players had to do was run past this threat and be on their way home for tea and crumpets. There was no loot to be had, no purpose for the players to kill random bandits, yet two out of the five PCs died, because they stayed to shoot these NPCs.Then I ask to myself: why does bandit have no fear of dying if they are killed in waves by the adventurers? I expect, in DM quest, intelligent monster to behave properly, not only when chasing invisible characters or aiming at the non melee chars even if this means passing through a barrage of AOO by the fighters of the group.
Then from a player point of view I would ask myself: why the DM put those bandits there? It's another ploot hook? Were the bandits asking for the artifact? Or were simply trying to extort money? Or just a bunch of red puppets on the way home? (then again why were they there? it was a "test" for the players?)
Back on topic: let death be meaningful but also, in DM quests, let it be meaningful for the other side too. Make them surrender! Make the spawn flee and, maybe, come back later!
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Then I ask to myself: why does bandit have no fear of dying if they are killed in waves by the adventurers?
Did you ever hear of 60,000 men dying on the first day of the Somme, going over the top because they were ordered to, even though they could see their comrades being mown down in front of them?
In this case, the players were not really that successful in shooting the Bandits and spawning a dozen more was not an issue.
The point I was trying to make then IG and now in this forum, was that players need to start moving away from the Kill Everything on sight mentality. Sometimes killing is not the best solution, and may not even be a useful approach to a problem. It is often the most boring of solutions for a DM to watch.
How do DMs encourage a different behaviour from players without stretching things, if the normal approach only results in Hack & Slash from 80% of events?
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@The:
Then I ask to myself: why does bandit have no fear of dying if they are killed in waves by the adventurers?
Did you ever hear of 60,000 men dying on the first day of the Somme, going over the top because they were ordered to, even though they could see their comrades being mown down in front of them?
In this case, the players were not really that successful in shooting the Bandits and spawning a dozen more was not an issue.
The point I was trying to make then IG and now in this forum, was that players need to start moving away from the Kill Everything on sight mentality. Sometimes killing is not the best solution, and may not even be a useful approach to a problem. It is often the most boring of solutions for a DM to watch.
How do DMs encourage a different behaviour from players without stretching things, if the normal approach only results in Hack & Slash from 80% of events?
Warlike situation involve different psychological/emotive impact. Back to the question: use skill check.
Make them choose morally.
Once I was on a Divby0 quest of more than 8 hours and we had 3 fights. 3 fights that were not overwhelming spawns. Still I remember fondly that quest (or better I remember the sensations of that quest).
An example, while in the fugue, after the death of one of my chars, with another player we were waiting for a rescue mission to be organized.
Well one of the things that occurred to me was: "what if the demons that killed us now come in this place and offer us life again in exchnge for our souls?"That from a RP point of view would have been an excellent way to put us (the dead) and the other char in interesting positions. How would two dead chars be alive again and get rid of all the demons? What do the demons want in exchange for the life of the characters?
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Force communication in between the players. Often enough while I am amidst an event or quest set up by a DM, do the players involved barely speak or interact with anything but the red outlined enemies that the DM spawns, and the path ahead. Like Almadyr said, give the characters involved a moral decision. Have the child in distress get a knife held to her throat by the antagonist that the players were chasing after, and threaten some kind of ransom.
Quite honestly, I believe sometimes the DMs are expecting a bit much from the players. Give the players a very cut and dry quest, you're usually going to get cut and dry results. In your example, Abbot, these random bandits are just bullrushing the players, with little rhyme or reason. Perhaps one of the players is a Paladin? What is the likelihood that a true holy paladin would turn tail and run, at least not before the others run and find safety first? Maybe try and help provide this alternative yourself somehow. Sometimes we need a nudge. Maybe in that emote More and more bandits come to the ridge. you can instead say something like More and more bandits appear beyond the forest line, quickly approaching, but still leaving enough time for a possible escape. Although I do agree that the players as well need to think outside the box.
Then again, to branch into the subject even more, it's also a question about who/how/why a DM brings players into one of their quests. Recently I've been seeing sendings from NPCs calling for people. Four times out of five, this is going to bring utterly random (not to mean that in an offensive way) players who have barely or never role played with each other. But rather than properly interact with one another, the players hop into the mindset of "I want to go on this DM quest to get awesome exp and loot!" and will sacrifice some of their character's personality to do so. Would the cowardly rogue ditch his comrades in the middle of a giant bandit raid after they're all already weary? Probably, but the player would stay, because he wants the spoils - he will make some form of rationale to stay and fight, no matter how farfetched it might be for the character. Thus, leading to Abbot's initial conniption about people mindlessly attacking all the red guys.
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I think one of the biggest challenges with DM quests is knowing what is expected of you. Personally, I don't like fighting, even if I'm winning. I prefer to figure things out, use my wit, or find alternative approaches. I understand I am in minority, as many people -do- enjoy the thrill of combat. That said, I often try to find alternatives in game, but unless there is a response or encouragement, perhaps I roll, or perhaps I am asked to roll, I just assume that it's not what the DM wants, and I don't want to try it and end up killing everyone else in my party.
Like Rage said, in this particular circumstance, if there some hint through and emote that there is a chance to slip by, I would pounce on it and try to convince the others. Otherwise, I would keep fighting, because frankly I am used to DM quests where waves of monsters are sent after my party and we are expected to kill them to 'win'. I've even walked away from quests like this when it seemed there was no other purpose to the quest other than to fight seeming random waves.
Bottom Line: As a player it is sometimes difficult to know what is expected by the DM, and a little encouragement/response to different ideas goes a long way.
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I was one of the players involved in the example and after some time we did call for a retreat, realizing we were outnumbered. However, it wasnt orginized well and two players did end up falling because of it. The DM was kind enough to explain the situation to us afterwards. And I didnt feel like it was unfair or anything. It did infact make me realize that more often we do NEED to think outside the box so to speak. I for one, also, do not like how often its attack everything left and right and dont talk about it. However, sometimes its a hard mentality to get out of because it is a game and after gaming for so long your "trained" into that mentality, attack the bad guys, continue on, attack the bad guys, continue on, attack the bad guys, reward.
I would like to see more quests that only involve a couple fights but alot more detective work, thinking outside the box, searching for clues, etc…As Eagleman is based highly around Batman, I rarely get to use the detective side of him just from a gameplay stand point. The options are rarely if ever offered.
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As a player, partly I think it's because most of the time you're not in a DM quest, and hack 'n slash is mostly the only option to deal with things. It can be difficult to get out of this mindset when suddenly you have all the options in the world.
Also if I had a dollar for every monster that has been killed mid-emote, I'd probably have around fifteen dollars.
Something we could maybe do as DMs is get PCs with high wisdom/int to roll a check, and them send them a Tell with a hint?
Like: You're a smart guy, you realise you could probably get out of this without fighting. Maybe try talking to the Pony Cult Members before they cut off your face?
What do you think? Hints, or just leave it up to PCs?
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Also if I had a dollar for every monster that has been killed mid-emote, I'd probably have around fifteen dollars.
Yes, I've seen this happen so many times its mind boggling. I try to wait anytime a single enemy is ahead, as often its a clue it may want to talk or reason.
I am sure I have been guilty of charging as well, but as has been said, its kind of a mind set we have to get in the habit of breaking.
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get PCs with high wisdom/int to roll a check, and them send them a Tell with a hint?
That would be helpful, while I might play a character with a high I/W score, that does not mean that I as a player could perceive that smart decision. Of course there is the matter of freewill vs. dm control.
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DM says: Bandit re-enforcements arrive at an alarming frequency
(DM tell: roll wisdom dude) pass check, (DM tell: as yet another wave of bandits arrive, you suspect this battle is lost)
keep increasing baddie spawns and lowering the rolls until someone finally gets it.
NwN is a limited medium, something that seems like a clear motive on one end can be completely lost on the other. If A player is simply not getting the message, it should really be down to the DM to bump them in the right direction.
If they still fail their checks, or don't listen to the advice, slaughter them all and put it down to stupidity and bad luck.
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My characters are about 85% non-combat oriented. So, more often than not I'm in the background for most questing/DM activities. I would LOVE if DMs (who can see character sheets) took character abilities into consideration more than I have felt it has been in the past.
I wholly agree that the mindset is near pavlovian, and its something that does require a little nudging by DMs if only because players are not their characters, and are not physically in that place where waves of bandits would have a MUCH different effect on them.
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As a player, I never make my character run from impossible fights because I, as a player, don't want to miss the fun when the fight turned out to be not impossible after all.
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The saddest part of it all is i was one of those players trying to plow through the hoards of bandits on the ridges. :( Honestly, though, through our RP that time we were worried that the bandits were going for a raid, hence the overwhelming numbers. Like you said, trying to be heroes, we tried to take them out instead of turning tail to notify the peoples.
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It's only because we wish we could solve all our problems in real life with a sword.
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I think one of the biggest challenges with DM quests is knowing what is expected of you. Personally, I don't like fighting, even if I'm winning. I prefer to figure things out, use my wit, or find alternative approaches. etc. etc.
Same here. The appeal of a DM-led quest is that it doesn't need to involve (just) fighting endless spawns.
Bottom Line: As a player it is sometimes difficult to know what is expected by the DM, and a little encouragement/response to different ideas goes a long way.
This probably is still true if you swap 'player' and 'DM'. After all, they're just a special kind of player.
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get PCs with high wisdom/int to roll a check, and them send them a Tell with a hint?
That would be helpful, while I might play a character with a high I/W score, that does not mean that I as a player could perceive that smart decision. Of course there is the matter of freewill vs. dm control.
Exactly. I am much, much, less wise and or smart then my character likely is. Not only that, but sometimes while playing I make poor and or rushed decisions because I dont want to hold up other people involved in the quest. This is another reason why more slow-paced, non combat quests would be cool and benificial.
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Something we could maybe do as DMs is get PCs with high wisdom/int to roll a check, and them send them a Tell with a hint?
Like: You're a smart guy, you realise you could probably get out of this without fighting. Maybe try talking to the Pony Cult Members before they cut off your face?
What do you think? Hints, or just leave it up to PCs?
I like this approach and will see what I can do.
Bottom Line: As a player it is sometimes difficult to know what is expected by the DM, and a little encouragement/response to different ideas goes a long way.
This probably is still true if you swap 'player' and 'DM'. After all, they're just a special kind of player.
Luteijn, you are indeed right! As a DM, I often am left wondering what the player wants or expects from me, as a DM.
Neith, you also make an important point here. The question is, how do I respond to it and adapt my DMing to suit without becoming a Director pushing you in the way that I expect you to go. After all, the real fun for a DM is when you players, when given options A and B by the DM, choose option C. I am really open to ideas on how to indicate alternative options to players, but I am concerned about pushing players down my planned route.
This whole discussion needs to revolve round what you as players want to see, given the issue raised.
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Some of my most memorable DM/Player interactions aren't from wide-reaching DM plots, and random DM spice (which is still fun, mind you), but the little things. Used to have a great time with the Gleaming Blades if a DM took interest in the patrols we ran and made it a bit more enjoyable. One time we ran across a couple bandits digging up the graves out near Immersea. It didn't end up being any sort of plothook at all, or anything -important- but it was lots of fun, just knowing that a DM was having as much fun as we were.
I know for a fact that the gut reaction of most people that spot a DM's doing during a scripted quest groan on the inside, because it usually ends up with a couple extra spawns that may, or may not be harder than what you're used to. However! that groan turns to a grin right quick if it ends up allowing you to do something a scripted quest wouldn't! Any old script can spew out enemies for you to fight, but a DM can make the enemies LIVE(or die horribly in amusing ways -_-).
Another paragraph. Solving problems in unusual ways is what DnD is all about. One time I remember being on the alchemist's quest (The old one, with all the bugbears) when suddenly portals start springing up around us and goblins start pouring through. Naturaly the first instinct was to kill them all. They weren't blue, they weren't talking, and they were yelling out war cries. After a bit it became obvious the real enemy wasn't the goblins (They kept pouring through the portals) and we started figuring out ways to close them between the waves. We weren't exactly magically inclined and we settled for littlerally dropping a boulder on them. That is way more satisfying because you solved a problem instead of simply clicking on emeies until they died.
edit Also. Hints, lots of hints please.