Paladin of Kossuth
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Paladins are a human concept to me, not an elven one. Elf paladins seems silly to me. They are chaotic, not lawful, beings. You're just asking for another pointy eared human concept, not elf.
Kossuthan paladins, on the other hand, sounds scary. Imagine a LG righteous knight purging with FIRE.
Bring on the barbecue.
Paladin of Oghma? lawl. What's he going to do? Purge all the evil books of the land? :roll:
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@Khamal:
Paladins are a human concept to me, not an elven one. Elf paladins seems silly to me. They are chaotic, not lawful, beings. You're just asking for another pointy eared human concept, not elf.
Kossuthan paladins, on the other hand, sounds scary. Imagine a LG righteous knight purging with FIRE.
Bring on the barbecue.
Paladin of Oghma? lawl. What's he going to do? Purge all the evil books of the land? :roll:
Paladins are a class, not a type of human. Also, halflings tend to make awesome paladins. So do dwarves. It is in no way a "human" class.
Be careful you don't lock elves into one acceptable alignment. Even though elves are in general chaotic doesn't mean at all a paladin of Corellon doesn't make sense. Just likely isn't going to be a knightly type, but a hero of the elven people and of Corellon.
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I don't care for how paladins work in the Forgotten Realms. Paladins of Corellon make no sense, nor do Kossuth, Oghma, Chauntea, Helm, Mystra, Azuth, Sune and plenty of others.
It should be granted to Lawful Good gods only, in my opinion. I however, am a fan of the optional rules provided in Unearthed Arcana where paladins are not only Lawful Good but are more like anti-druids. They occupy the 4 hard alignments, and can't occupy any of the 5 neutrals.
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why do Helm Paladins make no sense, honestly The Broken one makes less sense then a Helm paladin
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WoTC's contradicted themselves across the plethora of supplements (even without going obscure ones, which among other things, include the Lesser elven deities which have some NG/LG options)
Corellon's paladins are a Coa thing AFAIK, meant to avoid elves following human gods that make no sense (Though elves could reasonably be paladins of Mystra or Mielikki who are quasi-accepted (Mielikki going so far as to have an elven aspect described), and even more specifically because alot of NWNites get the cheery stupid example of Aribeth the LG elf paladin of Tyr from the campaign.
The Kossuth things bandied back and forth (theres been at least four), but stemmed from him having an LG Monk Order who could be reasonably adapted to paladin ethos BUT ONLY IF ones following the variation where God dogma of FR overrides the Paladin Code (which is a Greyhawk thing). Oghma and Deneir happen to share a paladin order in canon, as far as the "any alignment god that allows LG" train originally found purchase.
If you chuck Greyhawks Paladin Code on in full (designed for them uch sparses godscape) as many are wont to, Paladins outside of the Triad/Corresponding Racial Gods (and Ilmater very dubiously) make largely no sense.
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Paladins, to me, are by themselves a weird class concept.
It should be more of a PrC.
Or, alternatively to be broader. With the Justice, Freedom, Tyrrany and Corruption changes.
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@Khamal:
Paladin of Oghma? lawl. What's he going to do? Purge all the evil books of the land? :roll:
"From out of the East a stranger came, a lawbook in his hand. The kind of a man the West would need to tame a troubled land." ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDN4L7cAQf0 )
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@Black:
STUFF
I remember you playing a paladin of Kossuth my friend, back in the days of City of Waterdeep?
Personally, I always saw paladins of a certain deity, as individuals who have devoted themselves to a certain aspect of the deity, an aspect of good, with actions structured and orderly.
With deities with an LG alignment, such as Bahamut, Triad etc, you simply devote yourself to the dogma, and uphold the paladin oath, end of story, little need for additional gambits or thought.
Yet with deities who are one step away, such as Deneir or Helm, you need to find the core ideal of the deity, and place your paladin around such.
Helm is all about protection. His LE version, is the protection at all costs, even if it means severly limiting the freedom of the people in your charge. Hells, freedom in itself could even be seen as dangerous. Too much free thought will only place people in situations where safety cannot be offered.
"I will protect the people, even from themselves if needed"The LG version, would be guarding, protecting the defenseless and weak. "Safety is a god given right. And I am here to ensure it is offered"
With Deneir, I would say the devotion to truth, and to protect knowledge.
Ever seen that "The Librarian" movie? That to me, with a bit more orderly approach, would be a deneiran paladin.These deities would invest their divine energies in such servants, because they are representing an aspect of the deities.
With Sune, it would be the aspect of the romantic knight in shiny armor, etc.
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Sune Paladin would retire the second he/she gets a battle scar since i can't be Prince/ss Charming anymore
I actually liked the idea of one custom home brewed campaign we made our own custom Deities there were 11 in total and each one had 3 aspect of them a good evil and neatural approach to them and you choose which approach you took it to. So we had a Blackguard and a paladin following different aspect of the same god which argued a lot about prime ways of worship.
There was
a Nature god
A Hunter god
A Lathander/Helm like god
A Justice god
A Water Elemential god
A Kossuth god
A Shadow god
A Mystra like god
A warrior like god
(can't remember the last one)
And finally Lloth (for our 2 drow players) -
why do Helm Paladins make no sense, honestly The Broken one makes less sense then a Helm paladin
If you mean Ilmater, it does make more sense than Helm since Ilmater is good and Helm is not.
As for paladins of Kossuth, I don't see any sense in it, frankly. Kossuth is a neutral god of fire, unconcerned with good or evil. Why would he support paladins? And why would someone be a paladin of Kossuth?
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As for paladins of Kossuth, I don't see any sense in it, frankly. Kossuth is a neutral god of fire, unconcerned with good or evil. Why would he support paladins? And why would someone be a paladin of Kossuth?
He might support paladins for the same reason he supports lawful good clerics and a lawful good monk order. Fire can be a symbol of purity, light, renewal, overcoming pain - this stuff is in Kossuth's dogma, and can be reimagined to have a paladinish meaning.
I've always found the idea of deities that aren't obvious fits for paladins to be more interesting than the typical ones like Torm and Tyr. There's a tendency to view paladins as generic and predictable, so a different flavour of deity allows a little more scope for creativity.
You can imagine a paladin of Oghma who would focus on the protection of works of knowledge, the paramountcy of truth, and guaranteeing freedom of expression. Trying to balance that with the stricture to remain lawful and good might be difficult sometimes, but that's what would make them interesting.
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I can easily understand Kossuth granting spells to Clerics who preach the healing purification of Fire in an LG form.
Paladins on the other hand are champions. They are chosen representatives of the god who should match far closer to the deities actual Dogma and not extremist skewed versions of.
Furthermore, Kossuth, like all the Elemental Lords is a very distant Deity, he appears to have virtually no interest in the activities of his followers on the Prime, so of all the gods the Four Elemental Lords are the least likely deities of all to pick out champions from their followers.
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Next topic is Paladins of Camazotz
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To disagree with some posts, but also to agree with some points, Paladins are much like a prestige class. In fact, I believe paladins and druids are more closely related than any other two classes. They're the most restrictive and "specific" of all the classes, and the nature of their spell casting and relation to the gods is also the most closely aligned. To druids and paladins, their gods are both important and highly incidental. The druid oath and the paladin's code are the most important parts of their careers and their lives. A paladin is a paladin is a paladin, who happens to follow a god (the same applies to druids).
Their powers come from gods, but the god itself is ultimately unimportant, they have duties and a code of conduct that surpasses that god's preferences and will. It just happens that a paladin's selection of a certain god usually falls in line with the focus of that paladin's campaign.
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It's not the paladin who chooses the god, though.
It's the god who chooses the paladin. -
A Paladin's power is directly given to them by a god and they can take it away should they violate that standard making a paladin's deity very important to his well being. A paladin is literally a holy warrior acting in the service of his diety which ties him more to his god's ideals much more so than your average fighter. The code that Paladin follows is based off what his god expects from him; some are more restrictive than others for example say Tyr versus Mystra. And yes as Firestone said Paladins chose their dieties not vice versa most of the time. However, I could see a fighter dedicating himself to the service of a god's particular ideal and perhaps by a chance of luck the god notices and decides to grant him divine powers but I think that is more of the exception rather than the rule.
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Paladins may choose what diety they follow, but it is still the god who chooses weather they become a paladin or not.
You do not choose to become a Paladin. You may want to, or even try to, but most likely never even considered becoming one. Humility is a common trait amongst paladins after all.
Consider it like a sportsman. You can choose to play your sport, you may want to play for the national team, but that choice is out of your hands. You choose to play football. You are chosen to play for england.
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I can easily understand Kossuth granting spells to Clerics who preach the healing purification of Fire in an LG form.
Paladins on the other hand are champions. They are chosen representatives of the god who should match far closer to the deities actual Dogma and not extremist skewed versions of.
You could just as easily argue that clerics are closer. Clerics preach in the deity's name, grant blessings and curses through his power; their whole raison d'etre is to serve the deity's dogma. They are the source of the deity's power and the deity's earthly intermediaries.
Paladins are holy warriors, yes, but are never bidden to preach in his name. A character can be a fine paladin without ever revealing his vocation or the deity he follows. A paladin doesn't have to be personally chosen by a deity either - they may just answer a call of destiny that they feel is in their nature, according to the PHB.
Furthermore, Kossuth, like all the Elemental Lords is a very distant Deity, he appears to have virtually no interest in the activities of his followers on the Prime, so of all the gods the Four Elemental Lords are the least likely deities of all to pick out champions from their followers.
Whilst Kossuth is distant compared to most other deities, he is more involved in Faerun than any of the other elemental lords. That is partly why he is among the major deities.
BTW, just to clarify, all I was saying is that you could come up with fairly reasonable justifications to create house rules to include other deities as paladin sponsors. Not that Kossuth or Oghma or whoever have paladins under the official rules.
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Paladins are holy warriors, yes, but are never bidden to preach in his name. A character can be a fine paladin without ever revealing his vocation or the deity he follows. A paladin doesn't have to be personally chosen by a deity either - they may just answer a call of destiny that they feel is in their nature, according to the PHB.
They have to have a patron deity in Forgotten Realms in order to cast spells, though. And they need to use their holy symbol as a divine focus, so… they may not preach, but it's probably not going to be hidden... but that's nitpicking.
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4E does paladin's right, imo. One of the few things they got right.
A champion of a god/goddess . . . I'm not understanding where the LG comes from. Other than spell selection.