Overplotting and recruiting people
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Being one of those who flat out 'doesn't get it', I'll say that I think a bit of this is miscommunicated to players and /from/ players insofar that some people aren't that terribly creative at face value; there's an apparently infinite expanse of what can be done or achieved but there's not any real guidance on the matter aside from 'get people involved'.
Hmm, I want to raise a robot army and hold the city hostage.
-Get people involved.Nothing more, nothing less.
Some of us come up with these elaborate plans and solid ideas to do just that. But then some of us are left scratching our heads like 'well, now what'. Which kind of leaves us feeling at a loss or even inept all together as to /what exactly/ it is we need to do these sorts of things. I suppose there's always asking a DM for ideas and such but it just doesn't feel right (at least to me), I'm supposed to be playing this Fantasy Engineer yet I can't come up with a single (reasonable) way to get people involved?
However bugging other players for ideas and such, while it does foster interaction, seems equally like I'm wasting time they could be using to play their own stories out.
Really, I've. . . kind of lost all motivation for even making any attempt because of this sort of stuff- I dislike wasting other people's time so I don't try, yet I sit here feeling inept because I don't try. Now granted a lot of that has to do with my own situation and things unrelating to the game world, that's it's own ball of wax, but it still feels cheap to be potentially wasting everyone's time and while we /might/ have a few laughs here or there, it's just spinning the wheels, ultimately, with no traction to speak of.
I'm not saying by any means that I haven't been offered opportunities, myself, I just don't know /how/ to pursue them and get people involved leading to the prior points of fear of wasting time and/or a lack of knowledge/creativity on my part.
Blah, it's 4 am and I'm on my second dose of vicadin, don't mind me. >.>
Bottom line, I think there are /some/ out there who feel as I do and just don't know /how/ or /what/. These clueless lemmings mill about interacting with PC's and generally having fun but when it comes to the big picture, simply don't get it.
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A BrokenGunblade post signals end of discussion, usually.
He's like a vulture. Hovers over dying threads.
Hmm, I want to raise a robot army and hold the city hostage.
-Get people involved.Not something you can do alone. You've got a plan; raising army–>holding city hostage. Having a specific goal helps attract people to you. Why do you want to hold the city hostage? Not a lot of people would want to do that for no reason.
"I want to be King."
- explain to a demographic how they will benefit from you being king.
- win them over.
- Get yourself a core group of loyalists.
- Use them to propel yourself to godlike status among the common people by slaying a dracolich and flinging treasure to the people from horseback.
- Then build your army, hold the city hostage, appeal to the people to turn traitor to the "tyrannical queen lhal" and march in and "deliver" them from her oppressive rule.
Sure, it might not work at all. But at the very least, a lot of people get what they want. They get to be the center of attention, make people react to what they do.
This isn't something I've ever managed to do, myself. I think the reason it's so hard, is because it's hard to put yourself in other people's shoes.
Yeah, being king sounds like a great deal...for ME. How is a great deal for everyone else? Coming up with ideas and plots that are fun for US is easy. Ideas that are fun for EVERYONE, not so much. It's those that'll inevitably get other people involved. When players see how fun it is, that's where they'll all go. When DMs see that half the playerbase is there, that's where they'll go, as well.
Making a difference isn't easy. And no one says you have to do it. If you want to do it, you need a vision, you need a plan, you need charisma, you need a following and most of all, you need a lot of time investment. It's no different in real life, either.
It's just a game. Do what's fun, don't do what's not.
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@Sarah:
Stuff
Honestly, I think this is part of a learning curve. And at such things, its usually easier once you learn the how. Some of the players who are simply awesome at this, are new players, who do not see the "restraints" the more experienced player base see, and thus just give it a go, and due to that, it works, usually because they are lucky.
The longer you play, the more you learn. You see others do it, you either copy what they did, or you copy parts of it, and try yourself.
However, the longer you are here, the more all the negative thinking patterns are also learned. If you always feel like you are failing, then eventually you give up. No one can stand to be defeated over and over again.
I have played here longer than most. I havent played consistently in more than a year, and I am still one of the top 10 posters on the forum. I have played here longer than most of our dm team, I have seen more or less every villian and hero in V3 and V4, seen what they did, and learned of how they did it.
Yet some would say I still dont understand shit of how to actually do it.However, the best advice I can give on all of this is…
1: First, think up something wicked to do.
(Rule East Way as King, become a famous hero, become a Lich or a god).2: Think up a Concept, a person who would actively seek to do this.
(The son of the former Mayor of East Way, A Half Dragon Paladin, Tom Jewel, or a former follower of Bhaal respectively)3: Think up ways to achieve such.
(Create a huge mercenary force and kill Cassiel, slay evil Dragons, become a favored of Velsharoon, steal another gods' essense and open the rift again)4: If you cannot achieve ANY of these goals ALONE, then you will need to involve people anyhow. Even better, think up more ways to achieve your goal, by doing such in ways that other factions or characters wouldnt like.
(Your mercenaries are all orcs and bugbears, your dragons are protected by other factions, create a new and even more evil way of creating bloodstones, ensure alot of demons spill out of your newly opened rift)There you have, four "rough" concept ideas, all of them will need you to involve other players in your fun, and all of them, except perhaps the evil dragon, have both adventure and intrigue held within them.
Will your characters succeed in any way? Perhaps not. But you will have one hell of a ride trying to achieve them.
Remember, if it is fun for you, and fun for other players, then its likely also fun for the dms, and then you have created what is most important, entertainment and fun on CoA.It really, really really isnt much more complicated than this.
In regards to the whole, leader and follower crap. Well, if you want to create new ways to make bloodstones, you can find the current seller of them, likely meaning the leader of some evil group, gnomes to help harvest the gems for your evil scheme, adventures to escort the gnomes....
You dont need minions. You just need people who at least share your sub goals, and wish to participate in them.
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@O'louth:
2: Think up a Concept, a person who would actively seek to do this.
(The son of the former Mayor of East Way, A Half Dragon Paladin, Tom Jewel, or a former follower of Bhaal respectively)Solid concept imo.
Threads like these turn up every now and then, they make me lol.
The key point is that IT'S JUST A GAME. Play CoA to enjoy it, if you don't enjoy it go and play another game or maybe try another server and try and enjoy that.
Don't be a sad panda over CoA or any other game, it's not worth the tears.
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@Sarah:
Hmm, I want to raise a robot army and hold the city hostage.
-Get people involved.I have not read this thread at all and I don't plan to. I've seen it all and heard it all before. Hell I even had the same mind set at one time.
"Oh, I RP great, but I never get any DM attention. Only the DM Pets get the attention Blar blar balr."
Then one day I took all the advice I had heard to heart and I read and re-red the Adventure and Intrigue post over and over again and put it into practice. Suddenly it was like a whole new game and in the end I was made a DM. Go figure >.>
Any way, 'Get People Involved' is a broad statement, yes, and it does come down to individual interpretation and circumstance. But I think the one thing that a lot seem to miss is this: Getting people involved is NOT the same as getting people to help you.
Getting people involved can mean any thing from getting help, to getting people to oppose you or even some this as getting some one interested enough to wonder 'What are they up to?"
For instance lets take the above quote as an example. "I want to build a robot army"
Well, Lets organise a few adventure to go looking for a lost book on making Golems (first let a DM know your plans), going out to old ruins, looking down into the Berskin Point Factory go and do some of the lesser done scripted quests. Get people to come along. They don't have to be interested in what your doing, just get them along. That's people involved.
Look for people that want to build robots too. They don't have to want to build an army, heck they don't even need to know your final goal! Owww intrigue. Perhaps you might find in this group, though, one or two that share your megalomaniac dream. That's more people involved.
Now, your going to need lots of metal! Go out and survey the land, make lots of sending about it. Perhaps even announce that you have found metal in the wilds some where and make plans to excavate it. This should get the tree hugers up in arms about your plans and get them trying to oppose you. Thats more people involved again.
And so it goes on and on and on. Just don't be afraid to make enemies. Conflict is fantastic; happy fun land is boring
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- explain to a demographic how they will benefit from you being king.
- win them over.
- Get yourself a core group of loyalists.
- Use them to propel yourself to godlike status among the common people by slaying a dracolich and flinging treasure to the people from horseback.
- Then build your army, hold the city hostage, appeal to the people to turn traitor to the "tyrannical queen lhal" and march in and "deliver" them from her oppressive rule.
Sure, it might not work at all. But at the very least, a lot of people get what they want. They get to be the center of attention, make people react to what they do.
This random suggestion is, as far as I can tell, unfeasible.
-Any demographic of reasonable size are NPCs, unless you want to be King of the Violent And Dangerous Drifters. Ranting at NPCs won't work because NPCs don't even register chat messages.
-Hard to do that when your demographic is unable to even listen to you.
-Okay, now we're getting somewhere, because you can at least select a small core group from the Violent And Dangerous Drifters. Except you're trying to get a 'core group of loyalists' to a cause that so far has not a single person behind it.
-You have your core group of 5 armed, dangerous drifters and nothing else. It is not possible to hold a city-state hostage with 5 people.Huh. Turns out my character goal of "I want to be king" is not reasonably achievable. What now?
@O'louth:
Stuff, stuff, big important part:
You dont need minions. You just need people who at least share your sub goals, and wish to participate in them.- What if nobody wants to help you because they're busy slaying their very own dragon? By your guide, I just "though up a concept" to achieve this specific goal. Nobody cares, ergo this goal, the sole reason my character exists, can't be achieved. New character?
- Example: I want to find the Mythical Bloodtear Ruby.
1. Got that.
2. Assume I got that.
3. Find out where it was last seen, start searching from there where it lies now.
4. Assume I promised people riches and power and they took the bait, for simplicity's sake.Now I have fulfilled your entire guide, but… Oh. Oops.
Not only is there no such thing as a 'bloodtear ruby' in the entire module, nobody in the entire module now, or before, has ever heard of it. There is no information concerning the Mythical Bloodtear Ruby anywhere.
IE not only is there not a single lead I could start by investigating, there can be no such lead. I have everything you suggested, and ICly the idea of "find a lead, follow it" makes quite a bit of sense. In fact I can't think of a better plan to go search for something.Perhaps even announce that you have found metal in the wilds some where and make plans to excavate it. This should get the tree hugers up in arms about your plans and get them trying to oppose you. Thats more people involved again.
Except, y'know. You didn't. In fact you have not an ounce of metal, except maybe some incredibly rare ingots. And for that matter, if you want to forge them mainly out of good old classical iron, you're doomed to failure from day 1: there's no way for your character to obtain iron. Full stop. No such item, "Iron".
And you could announce you found large veins of the stuff all you want. All that'll get you is, after a week or two, people asking, "well, if you've got all that metal in the vein, why aren't you starting with the actual work? Mining it, forging stuff?" at which point you have to admit you have nothing and in fact all you've achieved so far is lying to people.I mean, yes, maybe success should not be the exclusive goal. But it's quite disheartening to undertake an enterprise if you know, OOCly, that there is no theoretical possibility, however slim, of success.
I'll admit, in both these suggestions, if you have a DM to respectively have the NPCs listen to your fanatical ranting and hide a lost tome of lore somewhere or have the old jeweler tell you an old wives' tale, yes. You can do it.
But as the logistics one of the DMs brought up dictate, there's a lot of hands to hold and only a few DMs, so a good 90% of the time there will be no DM to hold your hand, unless you're some special case they really really like maybe. Then you're DM-less for only 60% of the time.
So this is the question neither of you has answered: how do you accomplish your goals with only 10% of your actions involving any DM activity? -
I would also challenge the statement "Conflict is fantastic; happy fun land is boring"
While Conflict is certainly fantastic, there are some players who seek conflict with monsters and such, which is the traditional focus of PnP and do not wish to seek conflict with other players. Roleplay servers have brought the concept of PvP very strongly to the gaming community, but there are many people who still find that basic dungeon questing gives them great pleasure and find that they struggle with conflict round PvP.
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stuff.
Examples thought up in 2 sec often are. Hence, "example".
So far, I think BG's above post is the most helpful.
And yeah. Bloodtear doesn't exist in the module. Make it up. Look for it. DM likes how you're going about it, you might just find it anyway.
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This perennial complaint would only hold water if nobody on CoA was ever able to accomplish those things you're saying are impossible.
Someone has carved out his own kingdom.
Someone has determined a new king.
Someone has started a pirate crew.
Someone has led a revolution.
Someone has dealt with a devil and gained huge power.
Someone has stolen land from a powerful nation, ultimately leading to a war.
Someone went from sidekick to a powerful character to floundering alone to chief emissary of a powerful nation to avatar of a god-like creature.And so on and so on and so on… They had ridiculously impossible goals but made them fun for a lot of other people. So we jumped in and made their impossible goals suddenly possible. It wasn't a reward for following some checklist, it was a reward for engaging the server in collaborative storytelling. The reward was the opportunity for even more storytelling.
In each of those cases they had seemingly impossible goals, but they managed to get people interested in them anyway. Before we put a city on the map, Qu'larq had people going out there and pretending they owned it. That's why he got one- he was obviously making it fun for everyone. What Rel wrote is not only not unfeasible, it's what's been tried and found true over and over again.
Snip
Sure, and that's fine. Have fun crawling through dungeons! I love it, and it's a much better playstyle for when you can only play irregularly. You'll probably also end up on one of my (or any other DM who runs random events) random DM quests when I see you out having fun. There's nothing wrong with that playstyle, and you don't even need DMs to have fun doing it.
But we're pretty clear with our stance that players should be the drivers of conflict with plots, and if you want to be involved in them, you have to understand that that's the case. CoA is not PnP. We aren't 5 guys sitting around a table joking with each other. Even now, in NWN's twilight, we're a pretty large community with 25-35 players on a night. The dynamics are completely different and the game is completely different. I don't DM CoA like I would DM at tabletop. I can't. If I find time to be involved in major stories again, I will involve the players who will, in their own ways, involve the most others as either their protagonist or their antagonist.
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I'll admit, in both these suggestions, if you have a DM to respectively have the NPCs listen to your fanatical ranting and hide a lost tome of lore somewhere or have the old jeweler tell you an old wives' tale, yes. You can do it.
But as the logistics one of the DMs brought up dictate, there's a lot of hands to hold and only a few DMs, so a good 90% of the time there will be no DM to hold your hand, unless you're some special case they really really like maybe. Then you're DM-less for only 60% of the time.
So this is the question not answered thus far: how do you accomplish your goals with only 10% of your actions involving any DM activity? And preferably not towards the start, because as the previous post shows the DMs jump in when it's already going on and fun for other people.@HarryMcScary:
In each of those cases they had seemingly impossible goals, but they managed to get people interested in them anyway. Before we put a city on the map, Qu'larq had people going out there and pretending they owned it. That's why he got one- he was obviously making it fun for everyone. What Rel wrote is not only not unfeasible, it's what's been tried and found true over and over again.
I don't see the fun for anyone in that. Except maybe laughing at the insane guy who thinks he's a king when he walks down the street, that is.
I can walk out into the street and pronounce myself king of Ghent. I would not become king of Ghent. I would become an inmate in an insane asylum. Why should we expect a character who pronounces themselves king of RandomCity to receive any other treatment?
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Stuff
This is quite honestly how I've felt for quite some time. More often than not my characters get pulled into stuff that ultimately takes something dear to them, leaving them (and me) to wonder 'what's the F*ing point'. However I've not been party to any of those 'it doesn't exist, we'll make it exist!' ventures either so it's easy from an outside perspective to not quite believe in the fantasy of it existing.
However, some of this stuff is giving me food for though so I suppose I'll see what I can come up with!
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If you're finding it so hard, I'd suggest making a small time PC for a month or so.
Minion for those guys who did do the stuff you want to do.
See how they do it.
Emulate.
It's how most everyone learns. Have to walk before you can run.
Even Caek said TOBIN SETT was inspired by Pyat Pree.
In a server like CoA, there's very little you can think of that hasn't been tried before. Talk to DMs, talk to players, identify these people, get some tips.
No one's going to turn you away. Long essays here are only going to be helpful to a point. Identify a mentor and get your hands dirty, you'll be on your way in no time.
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I'm actually King of Ghent.
True story.
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Yeah. That's his majesty, King Caek I.
He's hot stuff.
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If you're finding it so hard, I'd suggest making a small time PC for a month or so.
Minion for those guys who did do the stuff you want to do.
See how they do it.
Emulate.
It's how most everyone learns. Have to walk before you can run.
Even Caek said TOBIN SETT was inspired by Pyat Pree.
In a server like CoA, there's very little you can think of that hasn't been tried before. Talk to DMs, talk to players, identify these people, get some tips.
No one's going to turn you away. Long essays here are only going to be helpful to a point. Identify a mentor and get your hands dirty, you'll be on your way in no time.
Exactly, and both of those characters are in Tyche's challenge because they were well-played and involved people. Legends.
Oh wait.
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Holy mother hells… Fireblood... You have to be the single most negative minded poster I have encountered in a very very long time on this server.
You want the solid proof that what I said was true?
I applied for a Cormyran noble, and Embassy envoy. I got the first approved, the second on an EIG basis.
So, I set out to earn it. I had... at the highest, 7 players in my noble house faction, of them... 4 actually played often enough to be actual sidekicks and minions.
Four players, who set out to stop Clar Banda.
Failed.
Tried to become envoys of Cormyr.
Failed.
Tried to gain East Way as my own.
Failed.
Killed one of Clar Banda's generals.
Succes, earned 8 dead close allies, and halved half our lvls respectively, and crappy loot.
Tried to kill a dragon.
Failed.Then we decided, fuck it. We will try and liberate Immersea. We found a npc, on some odd dm quest, who decided to help us later.
We tried to gain allies, did the leg work, eventually a dm allows us to do some quests to actually liberate Immersea.
ONE QUEST, mind you.This was after 6 exiles, a whole of 2 full RL weeks in jail, having just about EVERY SINGLE FACTION ON THE SERVER HATING OUR GUTS!
Then a dm decides he wishes to offer me a deal. I took it. I was later told, had i completed the quests, I would have gained so much more.
From day ONE, my character and her minions lost, EVERY - SINGLE- time they tried something. Sometimes we lost because other pcs were better, sometimes because we were unlucky, sometimes to betrayal, sometimes because we didnt work at it properly.
But still, we ended up with faction uniforms, a ship, a whole village at our disposal, wicked loot, and alot else.
That RL then kicked us in the ass, and we couldnt actually enjoy it much, is a whole different story.
Now... That character is by far the most fun I have ever had on CoA. Yes, it was hard to always lose, yes it was hard to have the entire server against you, yes it was hard to never achieve a victory. But we played the losing hand, and when people compete, someone has to lose.
Ask Lamancha if when he looks back at it, didnt have a blast. We all did.
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Before we put a city on the map, Qu'larq had people going out there and pretending they owned it. That's why he got one- he was obviously making it fun for everyone.
Qu'larq too his band of men out to Kilgrave without DM love and did it time and again.
So, Fireblood, if you want this Blood Ruby of Uberness, expect to go out searching for it high and low on the server. Take people along with you and make it fun for them. Make a sending on the DM channel saying what you're doing and why a few times as you adventure, and leave it to them. Sometimes, on odd occasions, a DM will spot you adventuring with a band of trusty minions and will drop a bit of fun on you. When that happens, try to drop into the RP the fact that you're seeking the Blood Ruby of Uberness and why you seek it.
Now Exploring can be very boring if all you do is wander round maps looking for monsters to hit. You'll find some, but often not enough to entertain your trusty minions and DM love is not going to hit you 9 times out of 10. So you need to add something to the mix or you'll find you're not making it fun and people will stop coming. Also, searching the same place repeatedly is boring, don't do it. Move round, Try not to explore the whole place in one quest, leave yourself somewhere further to explore.
This is where imagination comes in.
There are many other things you can do to incorporate fun into your DM'less questing and as you incorporate this fun, you'll find less and less DM'less questing and more and more DM'ful questing, which again adds to your fun.
Think Big, and actually Start. If you never Start, you'll never succeed. If you don't incorporate Fun, you'll never succeed.
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Some players try way too hard.
If you feel that your character is getting nowhere, you have no stories to tell, or find yourself in the Guildhall alone all the time, getting no DM attention, here's a tip:
Find a new concept.
You'll be surprised how alone your shy, quiet Ilmateri cleric used to be, but now your loud, obnoxious Banite fighter is having a blast with all kinds of crazy fun.
Don't be afraid to retire boring characters. Stop trying to claw your dull Nobanion paladin to heights of glory plots and loot. You're not fooling anyone, you're not having fun and everyone can see it. Step out of your comfort zone, change up your personality once in awhile and you'll find lots of good stuff falling into your lap.
It's not the DMs that make your life unsuccessful - it's YOU the player.