Charisma
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@Mr.:
@Excerpt:
INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, AND CHARISMA
You can use your character’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores o guide you in roleplaying your character. Here are some guidelines (just guidelines) about what these scores can mean.
A smart character is curious, knowledgeable, and prone to using big words.
A Character with a low Intelligence mispronounces and misuses words, has trouble following directions, or fails to get the joke.
A Character with a high Wisdom score may be sensible, serene, “in tune,â€
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Also, people with 6-8 Charisma shouldn't be making sendings and successfully leading large parties of people on dangerous excursions.
As to making Sendings, if you have the intelligence to understand that a Sender will broadcast your message for a few coin, why not use a sender?
Marin's Cha was low, 8 I think. She led parties, more through bullying them and being damn cocksure than any regular leadership qualities. She wasn't pretty or well spoken. She led by being smart and yelling at people and stomping around until folks did what she told them to. I suspect people followed her because she kept them alive and helped them get a little richer than for any bardic capabilities or inner beauty. If they followed her, it was because of what she did, not who she was. For me, Leadership comes in many guises. There are good leaders and great leaders. To be a great leader, you need Charisma with a capital "C". To be a good leader, you probably need something charismatic. Marin was neither a good leader nor a great leader, but she did lead from time to time, and successfully, I think.
I felt that her Charisma score reflected this nature of bullying and spitting out the dummy when she didn't get her way. However, I didn't see that prevent her becoming a Leader in her own way. Her outer beauty didn't really come into consideration when I created her. In that way, I regarded her as of "normal" looks, nothing to write home about. In fact, this aspect of her came out to a few who got a little closer than others, such as Katelyn and Raslyn.
I'd value comment from folks who knew Marin as to whether they thought she was High or Low Charisma by how I played her. It would be useful feedback from me. (Feel free to PM me as it's not directly relevent to this discussion)
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I'd value comment from folks who knew Marin as to whether they thought she was High or Low Charisma by how I played her. It would be useful feedback from me. (Feel free to PM me as it's not directly relevent to this discussion)
That is an interesting exercise. I think it is a good way to judge if your are playing your characters stats right. The Closer other players are able to guess your characters stats the better you are playing them I think.
We can debate what characteristics we have to show but at the end of the day what matters with charisma is how the other players perceive you.
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It's always sort of annoyed me that penalties of -2 are considered abysmally crippling, while +2 hardly means a head-turning advantage.
That said, low CHA may be offset by spending skill points. While remaining difficult to either trust, like or understand, a few points spent in bluff, persuade or even intimidate would allow the PC to interact. -
Marin had a very strong personality and liked being in direct control. I thought she had above average charisma.
And I tend to view bullies with either average or above average charisma, as they're able to submit people with weaker personalities. Their submissive victims would be the low charisma persons.
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I thought Marin had 10 or 12 charisma too, never looked at her character sheet though.
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I thought Marin had 12 Charisma. She always seemed to be at an advantage, or at least not at a disadvantage, during most of the social situations in which I saw her. She seemed confident and in control.
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And I tend to view bullies with either average or above average charisma, as they're able to submit people with weaker personalities.
Or lots of ranks in Persuade / Intimidate to compensate for a low Charisma.
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@Deadlock:
I thought Marin had 10 or 12 charisma too, never looked at her character sheet though.
I thought Dm's always looked at charecter sheets.
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Only if we're looking to see how an NPC will react, or how Jagged powerbuilt his latest character.
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Defining Charisma in one picture:
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I dragged up Marin's sheet and checked. My memory is wrong. She had Charisma 10, not 8. I think, when planning her, I considered 8, and then decided that I liked making friends too much so put her back to default 10.
But it does show how hard it is to play low Cha, unless you really concentrate. People just don't like not being likeable.
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i am really confused now…..
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Can we officially ban Jagged from posting in (this section of) the forums? That image will haunt me until I die.
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Low CHA can be countered with other things.
Having a rep for getting the job done and with everyone walking home alive, dispite being a bit of a tool and having a face not even a mother could love is just as good a reason to follow their banner as the 18 cha bard who can sing the birds from the trees and regularly debates social issues with the king. -
That begs the question. Who is a better leader. The high Int character who uses it to organize and gain trust or the sweet talking assistant to the kings daughters friends boyfriend with high Cha?
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Good leadership and charisma are not synonymous.
A dude with 20 charisma and 8 intelligence is going to get everyone killed.
The difference is, people might not mind because he's so pretty and charming.
(Please refer female PCs with 14+ charisma for evidence of this theory)
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High charisma does not mean you'll make a better leader full stop.
It means:
(i) you're more likely to be the center of a group of people because of your social-dare-devil nature
(ii) therefore you're also more likely to find openings into leadership positions because of all the people you know, and due to your own social-dare-devil nature or perhaps others' enjoyment of your strong personality, find yourself in a leadership position and utterly love it even if you constantly lose battles (you can assign a temporary leader for that)
(iii) as a leader you inspire people rather than bring them battle-plans for victory (if you don't have int/wis)Wisdom and intelligence also suggests people who would be good at leading others to success - but without charisma they lack the drive to get involved at such a degree, perhaps they are constantly focused on some less-than-social concept like reading some magical tome or interested in gold too much to seek social ties with anyone (though a high charisma character would likely try and make some with them anyways while a bunch of low charisma characters would most likely just ignore each other outside of pursuing their own personal goals).
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In fantasy, people take it for granted that a woman with curves, big lips, girly hair and a rather open mind will be found attractive to every single man/woman on the planet. This is quite untrue, yet it's often the case in the fantasy world. Charisma can't stand for the attractivness of a character if you ask me, as it's so different what people find appealing. For me it's the personality and way they act, do they make people smile when they are down? Can they bring a group together at the darkest of time? Are they masters on diplomatical discussions and can engage conservations with strangers and even the once with low charisma? If yes, I would imagen them having good charisma score.
My sunite is mute, yet she can still fill peoples hearts with hope and feeling something deeper than a pretty smile. This I see has her high chairsma score, to spread love and hope without using words and rely on bodylanguage. Still I must admit and didn't put in full score, as I knew without words it would be very hard for her to actually push out the real meaning and support like a person who actually can speak.
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I havent pinched in yet, so i figure i will give my own thoughts, by sharing with you a little RL example.
At my university, we have a rather large student organisation for the faculty of Social sciences. In this organisation, there are two chairmen. One that sits on the throne so to speak, with the over all responsibility, and one that handles all social activities (In other words, all the drinking).
For the last year and a half, I have been the second chairman. I would say, without trying to boast, that I have a rather high charisma. I am well liked, I find it easy to talk to other people, even total strangers, and from what I hear I am a fairly good leader.
Now, Our overall chairman, we will call her X, is a total tool. The woman is emensely intelligent and cunning, she is smart as hell, but she is viewed by all her workers as a vicious dictator. The woman is brilliant in many aspects, but she looks as if she was run over by a truck, and she has absolutely no people skills. I would go as far as saying that she is quite a bit smarter than I am. She is a straight A student.
In DnD terms, she is High on Intelligence, but she has very low charisma. She may get the job done, have the mental capacity to structure things, and handle paperwork, but when she has to act as the face to the public, she fucks up.
Since i was her tutor when she first started, I know her very well, and because of our friendship, and the fact that i know her so well, we can most often get the job done. But when we do it, it is as her handling all the paperwork, and me handling everything people related.
In essense, just being clever isnt enough to make an efficient leader.
That said, while I would say that I have a potential for leadership, I have also learned that you need alot more than to be well liked, to become a good leader. I have made alot of mistakes in the last year and a half, and I have had to work very hard on my social skills in order to become better.
Now how does this relate to CoA?
A good leader doesnt have to have High Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom. But he does have to have High charisma, and then still work at it, meaning high social skills.
A priest can be a good religious leader, with High cha and wis, if he then also has advisors who have high intelligence to assist.
A King can have High CHA, and average int and wis, with advisors to teach him.
However, id say the real military leaders have high charisma, high social skills, (persuade, bluff and intimidate depending on the approach), and has to have somewhat medium to high wisdom.
My latest leader char, Obarstal, had High charisma, medium intelligence, and 10 i think, wisdom. Because of this, I always had to rely on my advisors, Marin for more cunning plans due to her high int and street smarts, and her religious advisors and priests, in order to due anything proper.
She said I want to get from A - G, but it was the team around her, that molded the plan, the B, C, D and E and F parts.