High Level Quests and Doing It Hard Core
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In my view, we need more mechanically skilled players taking classes IC with some OOC overtones to teach players. If done well, this can be fun IG. Another technique is for a character to write an in-game tome on tactics and strategy for a particular class/concept and explain things in terms of IC techniques with OOC mechanics added as comments. These instructional tomes can then be published in the library. I did such a tome as Sywyn the Summoner and had it published in the Library.
I would LOVE to partake in a class given by a battle cleric on tactics in the field. It would teach other classes, specifically field clerics, about fighting mechanics and spells and such.
I don't know mechanics at all, and to some extent, neither does my character IG, so I would greatly benefit (and pay) for something like this.
I remember a battle cleric of Garagos who was so awesome, she was scary in battle. She used her armor, weapon and spells to such great effect that I was amazed. Of course, I don't RP my Oghman like that, as it doesn't seem IC, but the Garagosan tactics were fun to watch.
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My Necromancer tends to teach mages how to cope in combat situations… I do that even in OOC helping out people with spell choices, summons, what to use as a polymorph, etc.
Dredo on occasion organises lectures on how to summon specific creatures, their strengths and weaknesses, perhaps I will have to expand that to other areas.
Recently we did Kanthea in a group of 3, having a rogue, one solid frontliner and a mage, and I believe all of us were mildly high level. We still pulled through with ease because we did enough forward planning, even though at the very beginning there was a huge trip. I'd say anything is possible, as long as people know the extent of their abilities and prepare themselves accordingly. For Mages this usualy involves the need to have a wider than "basic" set of spells, so when they are aware they will have to face a specific foe they can prepare the right spells, not the "prefered set".
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Haven't really lived until you 3-manned most quests.
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DMs say they want to see characters with flaws, not cripples. By flaws, we mean people with human foibles, characters that may show fear, may give in to pressure, may actually roleplay being a coward (rather than just always hanging back with a bow half the screen from a fight) and so on.
We're not saying, "purposefully screw yourselves over on quests".
And no one should be "shunning" other players here. Our community is small enough that anyone who is trying to get involved should be accepted.
If there is anyone who should be "shunned" the DMs will handle it. We just ask that the rest of our players all get along as well as they can without judging, shunning, or being elitist.
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Id much rather like to see the players with mechanical skills play "concepts" that do not involve min/maxing to improve effeciency beyond insanity.
Sure, some of ys may know more about how the game engine works than others. We know how to effeciently combine spells, equipment and consumables in order to overcome just about anything this game has to offer.
But shouldnt that only force those who know how things work to play those gimped builds that we all know we can still make effecient? I mean, a mechanical intuned individual, can build a powerhouse that can kill just about EVERYTHING this server and its dms can offer. I wont name names, but when you think about it, you can likely come up with a few characters that are so powerful that you as a player cant really do much against them.
But instead of building powerhouses that go just below the radar of the dms in terms of what is powerbuilding and min/maxing, why not find the thrill by making a character that is challenged yet still somehow work?
A Rogue/fighter/barbarian, with low charisma and wisdom yet 13 int, 17 strength at startup, and with maxed out tumble, discipline, taunt and umd and a selection of +1 items can and will kill ANYTHING. Even a mechanical moron will find that such a character will not find any real challenges from CoA in any shape or fashion.
But where is the fun in that? From what I remember, those characters are only fun as long as you can find better loot, and until you hit the ceiling in terms of lvls.
But if you have the knowledge, why not make that Halfling (Wizard/rogue) Trickster of Brandobaris, the elderly cleric/wizard scholar of Oghma, the politician / cultist (Rogue/ cleric of Orcus), or the sharran monk asassin (Monk/sorc)?
Why not use your knowledge to make characters that combine classes and skills in interesting ways, yet with your mechanical skills will still be survivable? Barbarians with 22 strength at startup are dull as shit because they unbalance not only quests but also pvp. Where is the fun in playing a character that is so powerful he cannot be touched, mechanical, when you can make one that can reach the same infamy, yet through roleplay instead?
-That- is something i would personally love to see. Fuck it if the dms will reward it or not. Your challenge will no longer only come from their hands, because you are lvl 12, with 1500 ab and an average damage dealing of 50 a round and you have 49 ac, but from surviving Parners.
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We're getting off topic though sadly.
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And a 22 STR Barbarian would be fine as long as they played their crappy int/wis in an entertaining way that might make them "lose" often. It's not about having powerbuilds, it's about if they make sense and what you do with them.
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@O'louth:
Id much rather like to see the players with mechanical skills play "concepts" that do not involve min/maxing to improve effeciency beyond insanity.
Sure, some of ys may know more about how the game engine works than others. We know how to effeciently combine spells, equipment and consumables in order to overcome just about anything this game has to offer.
But shouldnt that only force those who know how things work to play those gimped builds that we all know we can still make effecient? I mean, a mechanical intuned individual, can build a powerhouse that can kill just about EVERYTHING this server and its dms can offer. I wont name names, but when you think about it, you can likely come up with a few characters that are so powerful that you as a player cant really do much against them.
But instead of building powerhouses that go just below the radar of the dms in terms of what is powerbuilding and min/maxing, why not find the thrill by making a character that is challenged yet still somehow work?
A Rogue/fighter/barbarian, with low charisma and wisdom yet 13 int, 17 strength at startup, and with maxed out tumble, discipline, taunt and umd and a selection of +1 items can and will kill ANYTHING. Even a mechanical moron will find that such a character will not find any real challenges from CoA in any shape or fashion.
But where is the fun in that? From what I remember, those characters are only fun as long as you can find better loot, and until you hit the ceiling in terms of lvls.
But if you have the knowledge, why not make that Halfling (Wizard/rogue) Trickster of Brandobaris, the elderly cleric/wizard scholar of Oghma, the politician / cultist (Rogue/ cleric of Orcus), or the sharran monk asassin (Monk/sorc)?
Why not use your knowledge to make characters that combine classes and skills in interesting ways, yet with your mechanical skills will still be survivable? Barbarians with 22 strength at startup are dull as shit because they unbalance not only quests but also pvp. Where is the fun in playing a character that is so powerful he cannot be touched, mechanical, when you can make one that can reach the same infamy, yet through roleplay instead?
-That- is something i would personally love to see. Fuck it if the dms will reward it or not. Your challenge will no longer only come from their hands, because you are lvl 12, with 1500 ab and an average damage dealing of 50 a round and you have 49 ac, but from surviving Parners.
To be honest I think min/max builds arn't that dangrous if they actulty rp the stats properly. That Str 20 half orc sound dangrous on paper, but if he's also Cha 6 and Wis 8 he going to have a great deal of trouble pushing forward plans and likely to make foolish mistakes.
Not that character with serous flaws arn't nessery fun (I've played a con 10 paladin/wizard before and she was a blast) but min/maxing is way overrated. Combat characters can get away with stats like Str 14 Dex 12 and Con 14 easy, spellcasters just need a 15 in there key state to fuction. Even with less than perfect setups, there often ways to make even the most freaky and weak looking build work.
Now good -characters- are far harder to make work :D
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To get back on track, in the past i've tried doing the high level quests, on dorgan i did a 7-12 quest most days. and i've heard many excuses, Not enough reward/not having the stronger tanks at the time it was Bel, Vulno, Will patson, Some of people wouldn't do a quest without 2 of those high level tanks, Alot wouldn't do it unless one of those guys were there. They just say its not worth it unless you have a strong party, so they say lets just go do an easier quest.
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Make high level quests drop high level consumables as alternative rewards, I'd say. My mouth always waters when we find an Improved Invisibility potion, not when you find some magical studded leathers that's gonna be sold to a player for 500 gold.
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Personally, i see most of the high lvl quests as quite easy, and i cannot believe why more people dont do them. You do not in any way need the tank, rogue/ wizard combo to make them work. Id say quite the opposite in fact.
Era, glow and myself use to do Karthea with a wizard, a druid and a patheticly build Rogue/cleric. We rocked the quest easily.
True, there are some quests which are just insanely difficult, such as the barbarian quest, but besides that all the others are quite easy if you know what you are doing. And no, knowing what you are doing doesnt mean knowing the quest in and out, merely know what you are doing.
I would however up the exp reward on the high lvl quests quite a bit. Its worth spending most of your consumables on a quest when you earn around 6-1000 exp and 500 or so gold. If you can earn that much, then its worth the risk of dying.
However, when most of the quests can be insanely deadly, and provide little to no exp, then there is little need to take the chance.
In short, balance the reward to equal the difficulty, and i dont see a problem, and i imagine others will feel the same way.
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Your statement of not needing specific roles, and then using our team as an example is contradictory. A druid with improved expertise in AC form backed up by a sneak attacker, both buffed by Maal.
Any quest is easy when you have clear roles, something that most high levels have, whilst you see more broadly skilled PCs at lower levels.
To further emphasize the point you were trying to make though; it isn't so much that high level quests are difficult, as it is that the PCs doing them are often not competent. Rhymo and I 2-manned every single quest on the server, yes, even the ones with 3-4 minimum. We'd just pick random people to come and leech xp from us. He would hide and heal, I would tank and kill. Now, the only uberness that the tank had, was that he was a dwarf. Otherwise, he wasn't optimally built. He was built to have huge saves and huge HP. His AC was only 22 most the time.
Quests are really as difficult as the party (or DM) makes them.
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@AWESOMEMAN:
Any quest is easy when you have clear roles, something that most high levels have, whilst you see more broadly skilled PCs at lower levels.
And this is where the frustrations starts. So many people require the heavyweight frontliner(s) to take the pain and provide the safety-net and then just tag along with a few buffs to them. In my opinion, this is just lazy questing. If you have clearly defined roles and use them, then most quests are achieveable with unusual party mixes.
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Hum I don't know if being more broadly skilled hurts at higher levels, there certinly a few high level quest where backline characters can come under attack
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Damn you wabz, I was just about to quote you with exactly this image. <.<
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@O'louth:
if you know what you are doing. And no, knowing what you are doing doesnt mean knowing the quest in and out, merely know what you are doing.
Let's say that's true. How do we get people to learn how to know what they are doing? Tells? Sounds a bit impolite. How do you improve mechanical skill?
Like I said earlier, my reply would be: more generous consumable potions and increase quest difficulty much earlier. The 3-6 level range should start requiring advanced tactics. Add dispelling monsters to quests, for example, as well as change spawns to be made up of groups of grunts, rogues, casters instead of just 1 type, where appropriate.
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Add dispelling monsters to quests, for example, as well as change spawns to be made up of groups of grunts, rogues, casters instead of just 1 type, where appropriate.
which of course would be so much easier to create for long term or done on the fly with our utilizing ….. yes here it comes what we debated for a month...... give the DMs more leeway and creative outlets by implementing a hak
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@O'louth:
if you know what you are doing. And no, knowing what you are doing doesnt mean knowing the quest in and out, merely know what you are doing.
Let's say that's true. How do we get people to learn how to know what they are doing? Tells? Sounds a bit impolite. How do you improve mechanical skill?
Like I said earlier, my reply would be: more generous consumable potions and increase quest difficulty much earlier. The 3-6 level range should start requiring advanced tactics. Add dispelling monsters to quests, for example, as well as change spawns to be made up of groups of grunts, rogues, casters instead of just 1 type, where appropriate.
By being taught so through IG means. Its easy as hell to teach the mechanical aspects of the game in an ig way, opening up for the whole master / apprentice aspect of the game.
I use to teach others IG about how to use powerattack and expertise, how to survive dangerous battles, depending entirely upon the enemy you are fighting. Others have taught tactics very succesfully, and used tactics that involved other things than simply having the party scout shoot an arrow to lure enemies into the front.
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What Jasede said tbh and Olouth, you're completely wrong. It is impossible to teach someone mechanics IG as everything is situational and every situation has mulitple solutions to it. Using dumb feats like PA and expertise are not mechanics, it is CoA >_>. Real nwn mechanics is the use of consumables, no I'm not talking about using a hold person wand and healing using wands in imp expertise whilst surrounding by a crowd of enemies, I'm talking about fighting a mage and realising to beat his isaac lesser missile spam you are going to need to use a shield potion/wand/spell. I'd wager half the server didn't know something like that which is the problem and what prevents people from being able to survive the high level quests.
tl;dr –> less gold, more supply drops, more difficult quests at lower levels to force people to learn how to play rather than them just luring and using expertise. There is way more excitement in nwn battles when you know how to use consumables.