FD/Subdual modification proposal.

Zool

This is not a fait accompli, it's something being considered.

I'd like player thoughts on it, and any potential problems people might see with it (if you see a problem, please at least try to suggest a solution to said problem if you can!)

Currently, we tell people to "stay down" when they get beaten up in subdual mode.

This is mostly because, the other player COULD have FD'd you, and so they gave you OOC courtesy, and you should do the same by not getting up and healing and rejoining the fight etc.

This makes sense.

However, we DO have a subdual system which includes several "states"

Something like, winded, knocked out, blacked out stuff like that.
Each state takes longer to recover from.

These aren't really being used, because the rule just says "stay down if beaten in PvP"

And that makes sense as a rule, because FD is faster, you take them to -10 HP they die, done.

The Proposal

So, the proposal is this.

Make FD require you take people through all the subdued states before they actually die.

This would mean it is no longer faster to FD characters, than subdue them, so we could then simply say - if you can get up, you can get up.

There's no confusion, people cant be accused of breaking the rule and it all self polices itself.

The final level of beatdown takes a LONG time to get up from. you can also apply more damage to keep them down longer. Also, you get a speed decrease, and huge AC decrease after being subdued.

Zap

I mean, I'll point out the obvious that this would pretty much kill the concept of assassinations if you don't catch someone alone. Taking the time to beat down one specific person through every state to death doesn't work if you're having to fight off all their friends too, and suddenly you have to take out a whole team rather than one person and then flee.

The only real solution is to impliment a way to bypass it, but then that just becomes the New FD.

But that said, overall I do like this as a concept. Removes doubt, and makes FDing a much more personal thing, it's not something you can do accidentally. If someone kills you, they meant it.

Yavamaya

What @Zap said, mostly.

Also, the penalties for being subdued should be massive. Spell failure, ab penalty, ac penalty, saves penalty (particularly will saves), and speed penalty.

Further, wands and any other potential offensive item should be limited by it.

SpiffyMeister

The reason we changed it was because I always thought it was absolutely shitty of players to get up after being subdued and rejoin the fight. It shows an utter lack of courtesy or realization you just got SUBDUED AND BEATEN DOWN and the eyes see red and WE MUST WIN, ignore the fact the player could have killed you in game, ignore the fact the player is given you the chance to continue your pc- nah, we better heal up, heal the fighters, etc...

Frankly, I want it so subdued players experience massive ac, movement speed, etc... debuffs, as well as the inability to use ANY items or potions for a period.

You need a DM to fd anyways, it'll be retconned if it wasn't cleared by a DM.

foley

If this ever did get implemented it would mean players would have to get much better at rping getting "blacked out" from a beatdown. I've seen this ignored 75% of the time in pvps. This also kills any chance to play a competent assassin. It could also just lead to much worse pvp encounters.

For example a villain concept just getting ganged up on by a group of weaker pcs who keep getting up since they don't have to fear being fd'd since the villain may not get a chance to continuously beat up one of them.

This change would just honestly makes it harder on those who already follow the pvp rules and make it easier on those who abuse them.

Orin1234

Since you should have a DM on to FD, how about make it so FD mode does not exist for players and we just have spar and beatdown? Then when you get the person down, the DM can FD them if it merits it? Beat someone down, then hold a knife to their throat telling the others to leave or you kill the hostage? They don't, you emote "slashes throat" and the dm does the FD....

Lord_Acererak

I would get to use the button...

More.

Miss_Behaviour

@Orin1234 That would remove any way for players to stop people from being able to get up while no DM is there.

The system isn't broken, so why are we trying to "fix" it?

Zool

Yep, after much useful feedback, I'm gonna take a look at this from a different angle.