How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over
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Eh... I mean I can kinda see the issues here, but with the DMs being pretty transparent that they are working on things both now and for v6, it appears to be more of a mountain out of a molehill type of scenario.
I mean even back in v3 mechanics mattered. I mean I went in after coming back to the game without really paying much attention, forgetting how 3.5e really worked and got smacked around on the regular because my mechanics just sucked. When I started over I really focused on mechanics but not the ones everyone said to, and I'm having a blast. Sure there are people that would still discourage my build because it's not optimal, but there is no better feeling for me then "tanking" 3 dudes, taking maybe 1 hit because of a rolled 20, while my team mops up the others to then take care of my guys. It's also a lot of fun to be told "Get back Ray!" and just blatantly ignore it and tank the super hard hitting scythe wielder with no issues. Sure the escaped Deva had a little bit higher AB then was necessary, but it also allowed for good storytelling... Point is mechanics do matter, but not to the level you seem to be saying it does.
The other option is that I'm just Tyche blessed and these issue just don't exist during the evening to late evening EST zone. Sure I've seen a few who would like nothing better then to run off and bust something over they head but that's their character. You don't have to be in the Spire to roleplay either... Not sure why that's even a thing.
I saw Ampharen make a sending for help investigating a lead on the plot he's leading and I joined up. No quest, just 4 of us (one of us a new player btw) exploring the ruins beneath the city, roleplaying, talking to each other, and got rewarded by some cool DM provided sword cutscene we got to be part of.
Later still I was navigating a potential political disaster between the Chancellor and the Golden Guard, that I even verified OOC after the fact that the players involved enjoyed. After that I went adventurering on yet another new quest for me, which I'm not sure about this whole running the same quests over and over comment. I think as a player since coming back I've run the Hanse Water quest maybe 5 or 6 times? But no more then 3 on Raynor and that's the most I've run a single quest, no others have been more than 2 times at max. Again maybe just the group on Late EST but everyone seems more then willing to mix the quests up. Even during times when the quest is with larger people where I find it harder to roleplay, we still got roleplay in.
Finally at the end of the day I went on a mountain climbing adventurer with new faces (one was a player I'd played with before on a new character but the other may have been a new player), and we're just roleplaying the whole time. I find that if you actually are interested in the back story people came up with, it leads to interesting conversations and situations.
Sure the typical I hate X works well as a character but being more nuanced can also work or maybe being willing to bend more. I've run quests with characters I know are blatantly evil, and my character detests evil. He literally loathes these characters. Instead of ruining OCC fun for the few people online at a time, my character uses his position as a mercenary to get more information on team evil so he can be better prepared the thwart them later.
Hell I'm the reason the Warden remembered to put a bounty on Ragor, and then the Golden Guard turned it down because of Ragor's connection to someone more powerful (who is my endgame goal, shhhh). This got the Dwarven host involved because he's a dwarf and they didn't want to see one of their own with a bounty. I pulled one string ICly by having a conversation that got so many others involved.
If you want to be involved you either have to play someone that interacts with others or bend your hard and fast rules to do so. Gruffman's Eso has a strict 1000gp payment required for each Guard member being hired or a 500gp for inner city work, I constantly see him bend this rule so that he can be involved with and involve others.
I think the moral is you have to bend a little to include others or to be considered to received DM or player love. And when you do receive said love you have to take the good with the bad love.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to got put out a fire with another mercenary company not being happy with the win I got them (Looks at Moloch).
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Mechanics don't really mean much at the end of the day. Sure you can be good at them and not die, but they won't buy you anything more than some supplies. Even if you win a pvp, you can lose a conflict altogether if the player is clever.
As for your position not being powerful one. You had NPC support, but you assumed that the people you were trying to deal with had no NPC support because you had "won" the position. Though I can't help but feel as though it might have been my fault you thought you had no npc support.
Mostly because I lied to you ic'ly about how dire your situation was internally. Using rumour posts as a catalyst I implied heavily that you had much less support than you actually did. Entirely in character mind you. I did have a few supporters certainly, but my character wasn't going to let you believe for a moment you were in a crushing position. If you had only stuck it out and not retired you would have come out easily on top of that whole scenario as a good 80% of the faction would have followed you.
Not to mention you did chase me out of the Militia quarters fairly handily and capture Pierre. Both of us being plenty mechanically able. So you weren't powerless on the mechanical side of things either.
I feel like as you are a person who got rewarded immensely for their roleplay (that warden set is amazing even without the npc support, faction base, authority and pay) some of these complaints here seem born of misconceptions. Had you not resigned from your post your opponents would have crumbled under the weight of your authority.
Even after you lost your position efforts were made to try to draw you back into it, but once you stopped logging in I sort of lost interest in being the sacrificial lamb, which I had intended to be from the moment you got the position. Giving you someone to defeat to assert your authority. Was really sad when you resigned honestly.
In general of all of your opponents, you had the most npc support and the real problem was you allowed yourself to be convinced ooc, by ic lies that this was not the case. I think you'd just taken things a bit slower and not just assumed that no immediate response meant no response you would have seen the level of support you had.
I know this isn't entirely about that one scenario though, but I can't help but feel as though it was heavily influenced by those misconceptions.
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- There is a large minority that feel ignored. I see it on discord, I see it on the forums and see it IG. These players are MOSTLY playing outside the heavily DM covered ones. They are players who say they update their player plot tickets with stuff they do, but still feel they arent making progress. I will push them to talk to dms directly when I see or hear it next, so they can speak for themselves on their specific issues. I am not a dm, so I cannot judge the truth of what they are saying, I can only give them a voice, as one of the "Vet players".
I'll be honest, plot tickets are a failure. If you want to get something done, talk directly to a DM about it. I don't read plot tickets, I don't think anyone actually does. I've always, personally, just wanted players to talk to me directly. Plot tickets are USEFUL though if I see a PC and want to toss a plot or idea their way--but typically squeaky wheels get oil.
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I felt all fuzzy when I see the Twisted Winds and Kingsmen get rewards. Yes, I see a shift, but and see you are trying to change things. I hope you will do even more of it in the future.
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Beyond the election, I have not seen this happen much, nor do I hear about it. Nor have the players who feel ignored. Again we do not see everything, we are players. So if you feel it -is- happening, perhaps there is a visibility issue here.
Squeaky wheels, you want attention, ask and talk to a DM? DMs, aren't omnipresent, we have jobs and kids and lives. We can't be everywhere unless we make all the players DMs; and obviously, that just won't work!
- I know YOU state it, Moloch. However, from a player perspective (not JUST mine), there are a group of players who, because they seem to be able to survive hard stuff, are getting alot of attention because of it. If you look at discord, people do not ask for concept help anymore, they ask for build advise. People see this small group getting alot of attention, getting the loot, exp and fun quests, and try to emulate it by optimizing their mechanical side, rather than trusting that the focus of the server is on the story, not the engine itself.
How can we help build that trust as players and DMs?
Just today, someone stated on discord "You cannot be a weaponmaster without knowing your mechanics". If PRCs are earned based on engine knowledge, and not on stories, we have a problem.
Well, that person was WRONG. I'm always happy to point out when people are wrong.
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Mozart, I have nothing but respect for how you out plotted me. Honestly. And I hope people can start understanding that. The OOC reasons why I quit, have nothing to do with me losing. I quit the faction, and lost the rewards handed to me during the election because of it. That is where that story ends, as far as I am concerned.
The situations that have let me here, reach back in time far more. For instance, I went on a dm quest with Elestra, where the DM spawned several half fiend warriors at once, killing me INSTANTLY. And it has been an example of the norm, where most quests that I have been on, have had INSANE risks, that no absolutely optimized character could survive.
It is things like seeing those who seek to beat the mechanical aspect of the server, becoming so revered, that the rest of the server tries to follow suit. It is things like Khamal stating that CoA is an action server, and everyone who dislikes it can fuck off. It is seeing people seeking advice on builds, rather than seeking input on awesome concepts, and hearing players state "Until I started excelling at the mechanical aspect of things, I felt ignored".
There are tons of examples of this spanning the last two years, but I promise you, NONE of this has anything to do with the conflict of the Militia.
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@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Just today, someone stated on discord "You cannot be a weaponmaster without knowing your mechanics". If PRCs are earned based on engine knowledge, and not on stories, we have a problem.
If you're going to present what i say in a bad light, at least use the entire quote.
[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?I don't see "Cannot be a weaponsmaster" ... do you?
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@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Just today, someone stated on discord "You cannot be a weaponmaster without knowing your mechanics". If PRCs are earned based on engine knowledge, and not on stories, we have a problem.
If you're going to present what i say in a bad light, at least use the entire quote.
[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?Isnt it more or less the same thing? I paraphrased, though from what I understand, it was the point you were trying to make, no?
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I have to agree with CB a bit here
For example you should be causing fear if you are a blackguard.
If you are terrible at mechanics and get beaten all the times in a fight hardly anyone is going to fear you no matter how well you roleplay, Perhaps a fault of people generally not roleplaying fear well.
But being able to back up your threats in a fight certainly helps
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@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@citizenbane said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
@o-louth said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
Just today, someone stated on discord "You cannot be a weaponmaster without knowing your mechanics". If PRCs are earned based on engine knowledge, and not on stories, we have a problem.
If you're going to present what i say in a bad light, at least use the entire quote.
[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?Isnt it more or less the same thing? I paraphrased, though from what I understand, it was the point you were trying to make, no?
No it's NOT the same thing, not even close!
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There's nothing wrong with questing, the issue I tend to have is (and this is something I'm guilty off), instead of stopping to RP and smell the roses, we trample the garden because "muh buffs".
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@mrpenguin-phil said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
There's nothing wrong with questing, the issue I tend to have is (and this is something I'm guilty off), instead of stopping to RP and smell the roses, we trample the garden because "muh buffs".
Pretty sure that's what @Vagabond3103 is getting at, @verk
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@mrpenguin-phil said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
There's nothing wrong with questing, the issue I tend to have is (and this is something I'm guilty off), instead of stopping to RP and smell the roses, we trample the garden because "muh buffs".
Find like minded people to smell roses with. Not everyone does this, so don't expect them to.
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@verk said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
I have to agree with CB a bit here
For example you should be causing fear if you are a blackguard.
If you are terrible at mechanics and get beaten all the times in a fight hardly anyone is going to fear you no matter how well you roleplay, Perhaps a fault of people generally not roleplaying fear well.
But being able to back up your threats in a fight certainly helps
If the OOC reputation of mechanical superiority is necessary to obtain certain elements in the game, we have an issue Verk. Lizardman played a warlock champion of some orc god, with an army of orcs behind him, and he was not a badass at mechanics. He made cool stories, and people loved it. The mechanical aspect of the game is fine, but as Moloch said, we are a RP server. If we can only portray OOC fear IG, then we are going down the wrong path. Especially if the mindset that to be a successful adventurer, we must be mechanical superior spreads. CoA is not a game you have to win, the idea of the game is to keep it going.
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[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?Heartily disagree with this. Not that it isn't the case, but that it shouldn't be.
We've always had crutches to help out the guys who aren't running 100 apm. So what if the weapon master PrC goes to someone who is weak, or Blackguard goes to someone who is not feared?
An everyday fighter CAN be tougher than a Weapon Master. The WM just devotes himself to his weapon, that's his thing.
A cleric of Bane CAN strike fear into a Blackguard. The Blackguard just does dark pacts for powers, that's his thing. -
@Khamal This is an RP server, and, if we start OOC not letting people join us because they don't seem to hold that opinion, its...really not going to turn out well. We'll get cliques and groups more so than we have at the moment.
I... guess that's okay to an extent? But at some point, it's going to be x amount of groups never interacting with each other because one is PvPing for the sake of it with 0rp, the other is questing with 0 rp, and the other is doing w/e
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There are certain aspects of the game that will reward mechanics more than roleplay and the opposite is also true. Some people can find a way to dip into rewards from both ends which will perhaps make it seem like those who can't aren't getting a fair shake.
Isn't this fine though? I know sometimes it feels like the rewards for mechanics are greater, but the loot I've received just for being able to roleplay a situation to a conclusion has been far more special to me than anything I've obtained for killing a bunch of monsters.
I don't think there will ever be a perfect world where those players who focus solely on the roleplay side aren't going to struggle or even suffer in situations that favour mechanical prowess. Though I do feel like there are lots of situations where not being able to roleplay a situation exceptionally are going to leave you in a similar situation.
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@wabbitseason said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
[9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: Mechanics help story telling. Not the other way around (*By that i meant instead of hinder it)
[9:27 AM] Olouth: CB, I do not buy the mechanics help story telling.
[9:27 AM] Olouth: It is a means to an end.
[9:28 AM] Citizen Bane: No? How is someone who is shit at it going to roleplay a badass weaponmaster?Heartily disagree with this. Not that it isn't the case, but that it shouldn't be.
We've always had crutches to help out the guys who aren't running 100 apm. So what if the weapon master PrC goes to someone who is weak, or Blackguard goes to someone who is not feared?
An everyday fighter CAN be tougher than a Weapon Master. The WM just devotes himself to his weapon, that's his thing.
A cleric of Bane CAN strike fear into a Blackguard. The Blackguard just does dark pacts for powers, that's his thing.People are massively overlooking the BADASS part. On purpose or not, i don't know.
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@mozart-of-orcs said in How the ”Plot wheel” broke, and the “Winner mentality” took over:
There are certain aspects of the game that will reward mechanics more than roleplay and the opposite is also true. Some people can find a way to dip into rewards from both ends which will perhaps make it seem like those who can't aren't getting a fair shake.
Isn't this fine though? I know sometimes it feels like the rewards for mechanics are greater, but the loot I've received just for being able to roleplay a situation to a conclusion has been far more special to me than anything I've obtained for killing a bunch of monsters.
I don't think there will ever be a perfect world where those players who focus solely on the roleplay side aren't going to struggle or even suffer in situations that favour mechanical prowess. Though I do feel like there are lots of situations where not being able to roleplay a situation exceptionally are going to leave you in a similar situation.
Mozart has a huge point here. Most of the mechanically good people on the server dip into both ends of the pool.
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We put content in the game to be done. If people are questing, nothing wrong with it.
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The Thayan Arena gets done regularly because people show up/attend. If people stopped, I wouldn't do it. I find it fun, players find it fun, and I play here to have fun. So 1+1 = fun really.
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I play to have fun, and some people are really bad about talking to DMs. If I don't know who you are (loads of people use hidden accounts) and what your PC is about, I am sad to say unless you do something extraordinary, I am not paying particularly close attention.
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I hang out on Discord even during times I shouldn't. I am a PM away, if you want to let me know what you're doing, tell me on Discord.
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Fearmoho just badgered me into toolsetting a whole slew of changes for the city to reflect their chancellorship. Asking me on Discord to do X Y and Z will get things done.
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I don't read plot tickets. Just tell me what you wanna do.
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I don't find hunting meat for the Ilmateri shrine incredibly exciting and actually boring- but you know what? I am more than willing to give credit to the character for organizing such things when they wanna cash in their chips for a favor or sponsorship with the NPCs they help. I don't know you're doing it though unless you tell me.
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I've consistently logged on every single day for the last two weeks and make a shout, "I am online, who wants to do something with me?" I usually get answers like Kill HellzYeah. Which is funny, but if people don't want to do something with me, I log off and play some other video game.
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Myron Quests are hard. You know what? That isn't changing. I like hard, mechanically challenging quests where people die and you somehow survive. You also know what? I adore making loot. I love making pieces of treasure that represent your PC or an adventure they went on. Many players can attest they randomly receive loot just because I liked a scene they did with a player. The 'loot gap' people speak of isn't insurmountable and can be done with enough supplies. Which I get can become a vicious cycle. A lot of what v5 was meant to represent is broken, and the best advice I can give now is to simply enjoy it for now, for a lot of v6 will shift the paradigm.
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A weapon master, in my mind, should be good at what they do. Moloch's taken me aside and asked to done down my 'mechanical requirements' department and allow for less than optimal concepts (for what I feel to be mechanical Prestige Classes) to shine. If people made another effort towards WM, I will be less inclined to look at their stat sheet, and look at how they involved people in the story to achieve the status.
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I am here to help you have fun. I am also here to have fun. I gravitate towards what I find fun.
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Regarding weapon masters.
The last time I was actually somewhat more involved in actively DMing, we tended to have some kind of a challenge, once the team felt it had been earned (or, the player did, and the team disagreed)
This challenge was normally a pre-ordained outcome though to be honest, because it was more just a cool event based reward for having achieved it already, or, in the case of needing to do more, a way to have some kind of potential NPC interaction to bump the character in the right direction, so that they will be ready next time. Often though, in this latter case, players give up on their character, as they feel they have failed and it's all over, when in fact, it isn't!
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As Spiffy has said
DM's can't help you if DM's don't know what you are doing.
If I'm out exploring I send a DM Channel Message letting any DMs on know what I'm doing.
I take screenshots of what I'm doing and put them in the relevant posts I make in my player faction forums.
I also keep the DMs informed of what I'm doing by speaking with them in discord and updating my plot ticket
If you think you are doing a lot of cool stuff and the DM's aren't rewarding you, It's likely just they don't know what you are up to and would be willing to aid if they were aware of what people were doing.