Crime, Punishment, and You
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To whom it may concern,
I would like to write an open letter to the server following the events of the last 48 hours in which I've had the distinct pleasure of watching no less than six deaths, a portion of which were permanent, or could have been permanent character-enders. While all of these deaths fell within the rules of PvP (listed in the Player Resource forum, iirc), I feel like there is a certain amount of courtesy which should be extended, which has not been.
In the end, I think we mostly play this server for fun, and from what little time I've spent playing along with the current run of militiamen, I can say that at least it feels that our options during these situations are greatly limited. As courteous as a player can be killing another player and removing their influence on the storyline in that direct manner, I think that we ought to take a moment to think about how certain actions limit the response of other characters and force perma-death.
Please understand before I continue that I am not delivering criticism. Everyone whom I have watched here in the last two days has acted admirably and maturely and should be commended. I simply want to draw some light on something that I see as leading to many of the PvP deaths the last two days.
To a certain extent, I think, it is very frustrating to have your options narrowed and it is oftentimes difficult to think outside the box when situations escalate as they have been escalating. In one instance, a simple search of someone with no 'prior' convictions turned into a half hour long street war which resulted in two deaths. This is not in and of itself a problem, I think, except that from what I have seen every single search or demand from the Militia now results in a running street war. This can be fun for a little while, but it can also become stressful and tiresome to the people playing the 'good guys' (or bad guys!).
In that kind of an environment where options are severely limited, I think that a little bit of courtesy must be extended back. Please remember that as a criminal or as an evildoer there is a certain courtesy you should extend to the people who are pursuing you. Some of these recent deaths are the culmination, I understand, of several concurrent storylines finally coming to a close, but at least one of them seemed meaningless and easily preventable to me.
I don't think anyone really likes FDing people without good buildup, and in these recent cases it seems like the buildup is 0-60mph in 2.3 seconds. I think we are being too hair-trigger with our FD keys recently all around. However, I also think that in several cases there are only a certain number of ways that the story can progress without ending in FD. I would like to remind that we can all be a little more mindful in these situations in order to prevent the options being limited, as crimes and situations can very quickly compound into something that might only end in the legion or death and it can sometimes feel as though those options are forced.
Thank you for your time.
R,
R.G.
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Bear in mind that being killed in PVP, even if you don't get raised, doesn't mean the end of your character unless you choose it to be.
Just as a reminder on how the server policy exists.
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I want to piggyback a bit on this in that I REALLY REALLY HATE FDing people. I've made it quite clear that it bothers me OOC when I have to FD someone as a militia member. I understand that it might be completely IC for your character to turn a simple search or questioning into a total war involving FD, however, just bear in mind that if you press the FD button for a first offense, you don't really leave anyone else a choice when it comes to sentencing you.
In the last two weeks there has been alot of characters ended due to criminal/cop fights. In these situations no single "crime" or search would have resulted in the criminals death and in some cases not even legion time, what lead to FD was the 0-100 escalation on the part of the criminal running immediately to full scale war and FD.
I, myself, have given every criminal captured a chance to go back out and continue being evil/revolutionary/freedom fighter/criminal at least once after an offense, except one incident yesterday where said individual jumped to street war and FD against militia members immediately following a demand of a search. I want long rivalries and fun stories with the "bad guys" or "Team Old Town" however when you push the boundaries of giving the Militia precisely zero options… there isn't much I can do without breaking the game or story.
On one final note, it has been discussed that if you wear a legion cloak it is supposed to be a fate worse than death where any single wrong step can give the militia leave to "press the button." OOC I may have been handing out legion cloaks more than I should due to it being an OOC courtesy. A cloak doesn't end your character and it allows you to keep playing instead of being in the pit alone, however, it IS supposed to be a fate worse than death so perhaps some of the lack of fear of the cloak is my fault.
Just remember things go two ways.... if you hover your finger over the FD button as a criminal... don't expect the militia not to do the same for you and if you are the one to escalate things from 0-100 in terms of hostility and death.... well... I'm sorry but you asked for it.
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Not every character deserves a glorious end, Not every PC can be a great hero. Some stories end abruptly and unexpectedly. You only control 50% of what happens to your PC, the other half is in the hands of the other players on the server.
If you don't like FDing people, don't play a concept where you'll be put in situations where you have to FD people.
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Not every character deserves a glorious end, Not every PC can be a great hero. Some stories end abruptly and unexpectedly. You only control 50% of what happens to your PC, the other half is in the hands of the other players on the server.
If you don't like FDing people, don't play a concept where you'll be put in situations where you have to FD people.
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Except some people make characters whose explicit purpose is to cause fights and get FDed.
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Those players get banned.
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Don't let the train derail.
The point is, if you want to play a villain, that's great. We need them. But please be aware that when you take a situation and escalate it from 0 to FD in a first or second encounter, the reply will be in kind. When you're trying to murder militia/guards/purple dragons/nobles, you don't leave many options on the table. We don't play guards because we want to FD villains, we play them because we want to enable the fun conflict/story. But that's hard to do when we become essentially IC'ly handcuffed by the events. It's not a critisism, just something to think about.
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You should expect to be FD'd if you're FDing people in general, I would say. If a player decides to FD someone inside of the rules on the second encounter it can be lame. I don't usually do that, but sometimes that's how it works out. However, they should expect to be hunted down and FDed. Just how it is.
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It works both ways. The current Citadel PCs seem to have even more of a hair-trigger than any criminal PCs.
If a criminal PC chooses an option that keeps their story going and not ending another with FD then OOC courtesy should be returned to them the same way a militia PC should be given OOC courtesy when they give a criminal an out.Less FDing over the slightest thing, please.
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i dont know if any of the comment here is directed at me and Dai running from the militia and bastian ending up dead as a result.
if it is, i would like to point out that prior to Dai running away he was attacked 3 times by militia members and then hunted down in the ruins where he 'beatdown' the pursuers. spawns then killed them which i would have struggled to prevent bearing in mind i was unprepared for combat generally and against undead that could kill me easily specifically. i had the opportunnity to FD redgallants character but instead chose to say a few words which were ic before removing bastians body with the intention of having a bargaining chip.
things happened (spoilers), and bastian has been found and raised and has now posted regarding Dai being wanted for murder.
this is likely the beginning of the end of my character because the militia decided to use a full spire as a place to attempt to rp a search with huge amounts of conversation running. i found it frustrating as Dai ended up running not because he was planning on 'running away' but because it was the only way to avoid being beaten down whilst i wanted to talk. i really would like it if anyone using a search device or a rope actually gave you a chance to rp something rather than clicking the button and forcing you to move away or submit mechanically. if that ends up meaning that some one escapes a search or whatever that might actually further the story more than having them in the pit or executed
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I was not there, so it's more like a general support of Cadiz here, not regarding the late events.
I think a friendly reminder on the tying rope and the search device on the responsibilities of the ones using them should solve a lot of problems.
Using a rope or a search device on someone definitely is initiating something, not breaking it. You ought to give people a chance to type before you click those devices. I think the walk-away-thing should be a last resort trying to explain you want to refuse a search/being tied up. Generally you should be able to express your characters' feelings through the text bar. For me, this is what makes this game a wonderful storytelling tool and this community a place where I can learn how to roleplay.
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When i played my agent, i was ready for pvp because you never know who' s carrying what and what they take.
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It works both ways. The current Citadel PCs seem to have even more of a hair-trigger than any criminal PCs.
If a criminal PC chooses an option that keeps their story going and not ending another with FD then OOC courtesy should be returned to them the same way a militia PC should be given OOC courtesy when they give a criminal an out.Less FDing over the slightest thing, please.
Militia has only FDed two people themselves in the longest time. One of which was immediately after killing a militia member and getting up from a subdue, during his sentencing and attacking again. The other was a Penal Legionnaire who repeatedly disobeyed orders over the course of a couple events. Everyone else who has died has done so outside of the direct conflict of law and criminal. The Legionnaire case is the ONLY case where the Militia might have jumped to FD a LITTLE quick, however, according to the rules of the Legion it was still warranted.
So I take great offense to "The Militia being the most hair-triggers." Especially considering I've gotten lectured for being too easy on crime as it is. None of us chose FD first. Except in the legionnaire case, the criminal ALWAYS was the first to pull the murder trigger.
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Lets avoid the he-said-she-said.
And no, this wasn't directed at anyone in particular, so please don't think it was. This derived from an OOC conversation myself and Gallant had about the general environment between Law and Chaos. I personally have been playing since v2, and have only ever PK'd 4 or 5 people, and 3 of them wanted me to because they thought it was a fitting end for their story. I actively try to allow criminals to keep being criminals, and haribingers of chaos to keep harbingering. Rolling with bluffs/persuades, actively looking for reasons not to escalate to quickly, etc.. just like today with Dobby.
don't get me wrong, I hate a care-bear styke attitude where people avoid necessary or IC conflict or PvP to spare hurt feelings. If it's IC, by all means do it. The other side can get over it. And I look forward to the conflict, and to my eventual death at the hands of someone in my opposition. I just hope it's not in an escalated 1st/2nd encounter that could have been much more, story wise.
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I was not there, so it's more like a general support of Cadiz here, not regarding the late events.
I think a friendly reminder on the tying rope and the search device on the responsibilities of the ones using them should solve a lot of problems.
Using a rope or a search device on someone definitely is initiating something, not breaking it. You ought to give people a chance to type before you click those devices. I think the walk-away-thing should be a last resort trying to explain you want to refuse a search/being tied up. Generally you should be able to express your characters' feelings through the text bar. For me, this is what makes this game a wonderful storytelling tool and this community a place where I can learn how to roleplay.
It's important to note there was about 6-7 minutes of dialoge leading up to the actual clicking of the ropes in this specific incident. Sadly, players involved missed key aspects of the conversation in the chaos, because of alot of text flying by very fast. This was not discovered until afterwards and was talked out and resolved in peace and quiet.
I don't think the specific event mentioned is the sole cause for this post, and should not be interpreted as critique against any one character, because no one in that specific event overstepped, and all the people involved acted responsibly to create a thrilling, exciting scene. I, for one, am very glad to have been a part of that scene even if it landed me in the fugue :P
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@latoksinned:
It works both ways. The current Citadel PCs seem to have even more of a hair-trigger than any criminal PCs.
If a criminal PC chooses an option that keeps their story going and not ending another with FD then OOC courtesy should be returned to them the same way a militia PC should be given OOC courtesy when they give a criminal an out.Less FDing over the slightest thing, please.
Militia has only FDed two people themselves in the longest time. One of which was immediately after killing a militia member and getting up from a subdue, during his sentencing and attacking again. The other was a Penal Legionnaire who repeatedly disobeyed orders over the course of a couple events. Everyone else who has died has done so outside of the direct conflict of law and criminal. The Legionnaire case is the ONLY case where the Militia might have jumped to FD a LITTLE quick, however, according to the rules of the Legion it was still warranted.
So I take great offense to "The Militia being the most hair-triggers." Especially considering I've gotten lectured for being too easy on crime as it is. None of us chose FD first. Except in the legionnaire case, the criminal ALWAYS was the first to pull the murder trigger.
I didn't say anything about the Militia. I said the Citadel.
This has always been the case though. The more lawful and good a PC is the faster they move to murdering their enemy. I believe Golw said this better than I once.
It just so happens the Citadel supports those kinds of PCs more than Old Town does. -
@latoksinned:
It works both ways. The current Citadel PCs seem to have even more of a hair-trigger than any criminal PCs.
If a criminal PC chooses an option that keeps their story going and not ending another with FD then OOC courtesy should be returned to them the same way a militia PC should be given OOC courtesy when they give a criminal an out.Less FDing over the slightest thing, please.
Militia has only FDed two people themselves in the longest time. One of which was immediately after killing a militia member and getting up from a subdue, during his sentencing and attacking again. The other was a Penal Legionnaire who repeatedly disobeyed orders over the course of a couple events. Everyone else who has died has done so outside of the direct conflict of law and criminal. The Legionnaire case is the ONLY case where the Militia might have jumped to FD a LITTLE quick, however, according to the rules of the Legion it was still warranted.
So I take great offense to "The Militia being the most hair-triggers." Especially considering I've gotten lectured for being too easy on crime as it is. None of us chose FD first. Except in the legionnaire case, the criminal ALWAYS was the first to pull the murder trigger.
I didn't say anything about the Militia. I said the Citadel.
This has always been the case though. The more lawful and good a PC is the faster they move to murdering their enemy. I believe Golw said this better than I once.
It just so happens the Citadel supports those kinds of PCs more than Old Town does.I'm struggling to think of wich of the deaths were dealt out prematurely by trigger happy lawful and good citadel people…
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Keep the topic on track, please. This isn't meant to be about a single incident. Just a gentle reminder that your actions have a direct impact on the way you are responded to. That most people are looking for ways to actively extend the story, but it is easy to become handtied to execution quickly in many fast escalating situations. This is not always bad, and can be intentional. And as long as everyone knows ahead of time, lets all have fun!
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PCs are dangerous characters leading dangerous lives.
Death in game, much like real life, can come suddenly and leave a lot of open threads and unanswered questions. This is not something that should be considered a failure.
By lessening Full Death - making it a capital punishment only worthy of players who 'deserve no OOC courtesy' as the daily mood seems to be - you remove fear of that death. It's scarcely there to begin with. Having played multiple villains and having to temper my IC Murderlust for OOC reasons - players often mistake that courtesy IC. They Abuse it. They don't fear it. The character doesn't fear death, while the player fears the loss of their character, and it shines through.
Additionally, an unvoiced concern; a lot of the time you let the other player go, for them to turn around and kill you shortly afterwards. This hasn't happened to me, but people have threatened it (and I FD'd them.) and I have seen it happen to others. There are a handful of players I trust OOC to not immediately turn around and FD me as soon as they're free - but if I don't know you I'm probably not going to let you get away with it if you've done something to warrant being killed stone-cold dead. Because that's the game. That's a real life fear. That's why people keep a gun in their car and don't let their kids talk to strangers. There are bad people. Don't pick bar fights if you don't want to get stabbed to death in an alley somewhere. Don't play a hardline character if you don't want to get killed by opposing factions. Most characters want to accomplish big things. PvP with FD comes with that territory.
As players, we try to mitigate this somewhat as we remember the stories that happen more than the ultimate victories. As players, we feel as though we have failed if our stories aren't worthy of grand retellings, or if we don't accomplish the objectives we set out to begin. Ultimately this is not the rubric we should judge ourselves by. Yes, playing the legendary character who has a name that lives on - a statue in their honor - a mangled helm in Shylocks - is a great thing. But it occurs mostly by accident, luck, and timing.
Instead, the Rubrics you should judge your character by:
Did you have fun?
Yes, the end sucked, the end /always/ sucks, at best it's bittersweet. Up until that point, did you have fun?Was it a memorable character?
Did you improve your own ability to roleplay?
Did you get to cyber with one or more hot babes?