EiG Stuff
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The paths for EiG stuff need to be a little more obvious and open to understanding. It feels like people arbitrarily get such things and while I understand 'story' is /always/ important, and sometimes things need to be done to forward a story in a certain direction. But other times it feels like getting your face kicked in for nothing.
A simple 'We don't want to see X on the server right now" is not an anathema. SOME kind of communication would be seriously welcome.
People quit their characters when they dump weeks and weeks of time and effort and get fuck all out of it. I know it's a game, but it's /extremely/ frustrating.
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Is this something that is best taking up with DM team in private? These types of threads rarely have happy endings or fulfill the constructive discussion that may be needed.
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I don't see it bad to discuss this as long as it is done in a civil manner.
I made a similar thread a while ago where i mentioned that EiG stuff can often take WAY too long to earn or be offered. Especially for someone like me whose character life span tends to be short >.>
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It's nothing that hasn't been said, but's usually said for good reason. I'm not going to get into any specifics or even try and make it 'about me' at all. I've been here long enough to see several people give up enroute to their goal because what makes sense in pursuing it (like say a Star Pact) amounts to nothing.
All I'm saying is that more open and obvious communication needs to be had. That's all I'm suggesting. Maybe outline some general ideas of broad goals; like "if you're going to look to get yourself a demon pact, maybe think about hanging out and bringing people to dark secluded places and try attracticing the attention of infernal creatures'
And yes, CB nailed it. DM's seem to think people's characters (or desire to play them) are much longer than they actually are. Which is fine, but we need to find a balance between expectations on both ends.
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Communication is key on both ends i've found. I've sent in applications for EiG stuff had them declined. If i had gotten just a "NO!" i would have just said fu%$ it and done something else. In my case i got "No, but this is what we encourage you to do to change it to a yes….."
Made all the difference in the world.
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Leveling up, being mechanically effective, having people agree with you that you get _______, and being geared isn't really effort in the terms of EiG.
When people actually see the actual effort to EiG something on its own, that is when it will happen if you write down things in plot tracker.
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See Hellz' post below
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I don't think anyone here assumes that because you're level 11 and are full looted you 'deserve' a PRC or other EIG reward.
I do think that the problem with a lot of these things that should take a long time is that you really start to lose motivation, especially when there's only a couple steps to get. Increasing the number of little steps required to get to that big step might help- It gives a sense of progression and keeps people interested in the concept instead of feeling like they're just treading water trying to do the same shit.
For example, the Advisor Track really only has a few steps. You start at councilor, and get a few benefits but generally its square one. Then you have Knight/Retainer which is a pretty big step up from there but not entirely out of the question, and then you have Councilor- A rank that literally nobody in almost two years in V5 now has reached. Some in-between ranks help in this matter, and a system where existing ranking members can promote without a DM would be perfect for this.
So, for instance, you have the knight track. The bolded ranks require a DM to promote, but the non-bold ones can be done by PCs of a higher rank.
Advisor -> High Advisor -> Squire -> Knight -> Count/(Baron?) -> Lord of Cormyr
The bolded ranks come with the higher rewards, the unbolded ones coming usually with a neat flavorful item and some just slightly increased political clout (Maybe an extra vote during meetings.) Allowing PCs to promote others more readily is a system that allows them to really feel the consequences of those actions and the responsibility to be involved in their advancement.
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I love this idea, yes
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Ranks and promoting at present are fairly forthcoming at the moment.
The idea of a smaller interval in the advisors aka rank 1.5, is fairly old.
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Some truth's about EIG:
Being proactive gets you there much faster then being reactive. So while it is possible to grind out DM plots and get promoted, having your own ideas and following through on them is pretty much a sure fire route.You can always ask what's up with my promotion if you think you deserve one, doing so will start a thread in the dm area. Sometimes we will say "No, not yet." We encourage you to ask why not, we will gladly explain our reasoning. Being able to accept the fact that someone has to make these sort of calls for the server to work is the type of thing that brings you near and dear to our hearts. This paragraph can actually be applied to a multitude of issues that crop up from time to time, such as things not going your way and so forth.
How fast you level matters little. If a player wants weapons master for an easy example, but gets to level 11 in two days….he may be a level 11 fighter for a while, but eventually when he does earn the weapons master we always offer to roll the levels back a bit and then bounce you up one at the very least. We want you to be able to enjoy the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, not stress about how fast you get the EIG because you level to fast.
As for more ranks, it could be a double edged sword. If you only get one promotion in a characters life it could have been a higher one then the one you ended up with, just to play devils advocate. But if you all want more ranks, I am certainly willing to support that. Feel free to start a poll if you feel strongly about it, and we will discuss based on that.
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We're actually in the process of allowing players to "promote" people to full advisor, though the reason for it is more about players being concerned people do the advisor quest for free rest and cheaper potions alone. However, a minor system was built to handle it, which would make it easier to implement player promotions.
If/when we add those, it will be less significant than a dm promotion though, because we don't want it to become a join the clique to get promoted thing.
I will say the example of earning warlock in game is a bad one though. That's actually one of those things that shouldn't be planned, it should just happen as part of a story.
Though I don't mind coming up with some examples of things a character might do to earn other things. The thing is that it can be so variable, and also changes based on what's going on at the time, especially with NPC promotions. Mostly with those it's about being pro-active and engaging other players in your own plotlines, which should link with the npcs own goals, and then getting some kind of "win"
Often you'll get some form of reward before a promotion though.
You are entirely correct that it is arbitrary, it has to be, otherwise it would be a list if things to do and could probably be entirely scripted, which would make it pretty meaningless and possibly boring.
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I think, and this is of course very subjective, that it is VITAL, that dms also look at the people behind the scenes, getting shit done. I have been back three or four weeks, I have stayed up ALOT of nights, to make dm events that are in timezones my fiance certainly does not agree with. However, what I have noticed on these events are often feathers in the hat of the person who had contact with the dm, rather than the participants who made it happen.
For instance, my lvl 5 scout, brings 6 adventurers with me to the Stormhorns, to hunt down Gold Chief Orcs. We locate them, but the success behind the event, are the 6 medium to high level, experienced adventurers, some of whom died, the rest using 1000s of consumables to survive. I get a pad on the back, I get a "conducted raid" on my resume, while the 6 people who did the work, are rarely even mentioned in my report on the forum afterwards. This creates two issues. One is IC, that might annoy some characters IC, but promotes conflict, which is fine. The other, is that very few people are advancing in ranks, while the rest are ignored. And it is VERY hard, to see if said ignoring is IC or OOC.
Two years ago, no one wanted to be a minion or a follower. Today, we have alot. This allows dms to not be pestered by players wanting events, it makes it easier to run events, and it works. However, if only the people who have daily contact with dms are promoted or celebrated, we will end up with the same situation as two years ago, where everyone wanted to lead, but no one would follow. Pyatt Pree would never have succeeded, had it not been for Brutus, his sidekick and second in command.
I dont want to enter a screaming match for attention. I try to work the plots I know, by bringing people on adventurers, using scripted quests and exploration and my own pockets for advancing plots. I do this, because I want to free up dm time, but not pestering them all day. If I only get promoted by being the one who does the OOC contact to dms to set up events…
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Though I don't mind coming up with some examples of things a character might do to earn other things. The thing is that it can be so variable, and also changes based on what's going on at the time, especially with NPC promotions. Mostly with those it's about being pro-active and engaging other players in your own plotlines, which should link with the npcs own goals, and then getting some kind of "win"
Often you'll get some form of reward before a promotion though.This is my point. With a limited number of DMs, a limited number of events to show your worth, it becomes the person with the OOC contact with the dm, who gains the win on their resume. The events I have been on so far, the battles become so chaotic, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to stand out, except perhaps by dying. If being a vital part events isnt enough, how do you achieve the win yourself, rather than give it to someone else?
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You won't get promotions for just being on a dm event, and I think that's entirely correct. I also think it's entirely correct to reward the person pushing (and perhaps even creating) the plot/event.
If there are people on your team that have also been engaging people in their own plans, or have been a major element in something you created, tell the dms, but we normally see it through the forums and in game.
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What I mean is, being the guy who came along and managed to kill most of the demons might get you an extra bit of loot or xp from the dm running it, but events are a result of the things that get you promoted, or, a clue/rum up to some things you could do.
Being good at killing things, and turning up to kill things, achieves little in the way of things like promotions or prcs.
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I understand why Zool, but if everyone wants to be the individual getting credit, it will mean there is no one to push the plot to, as everyone is pushing the other way. Ill use an example. Someone approaches my character, about scouting the Hullack for Orcs. I accept it, and organize with sendings, do the work. Said person who contacted me, writes on their forum, they had me organize the scouting mission, which had no dm. I report back to said person IC, inform them, and they write again, hired adventurers to scout the Hullack, no result.
Who gets the feather, the "I have involved others" medal? I am not saying everyone should get a participation medal. But if only the person who initiates gets positive attention, why would anyone do the work? Many of us have limited playing times. So, if I want to see my character promoted, I have to stop logging in or staying up late, for events that I myself have not set up with a dm?
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Think I deleted your next post by mistake there, on a phone. Sorry, if you can re post that'd be great.
You need to stop organising your life round an online game probably yes, but that's besides the point really.As for the actual question, the person who got a group together and essentially ran an event, would get rewarded (though maybe not instantly, but it would be noted as a "thing" they have done when it comes to dishing out promotions etc, otherwise we need to come up with a reward or promotion every time anything remotely interesting is done).
The person who "hired" them to do so would also get rewarded (again, perhaps not instantly, but they might get a dm turning up to spice up their event, and perhaps throw a plot hook/some loot/xp their way).
The people helping out, would get rewarded by: the event itself(more so if a dm happened to turn up), being likely to be hired for more, being likely to end up in related dm events, and being likely to be given cool loot by the players who got direct dm rewards, though these guys won't get a promotion or anything for turning up, the turning up is supposed to be fun and it's own reward, if it isn't then something went wrong.)
We reward the people who (in the experience of the team, including the older dms who pop in from time to time) create more fun on the server the most. The idea being, people see them gaining cool stuff they might like some time, and so can try to emulate some of what they do, meaning we have more people creating more fun stuff while dms aren't online.
To answer the post you made just now while I was writing all that-
It depends.
How did the militia hear of the smuggling den?
Did a dm just tell then about it and run an event?
In this case, everyone will be rewarded by the event itself, loot, and xp. You don't get promoted for being there on dm events.Did the dm post in the forums, then the sergeant organised a group and went on the dm event?
This is the same as above.Did the sergeant spend some time patrolling the streets, fighting npc and pc bandits, with potential deputies, while training them and teaching the laws, then a dm dropped them the future smuggling event hook on a dead npc bandit?
I'm this case, the sergeant was engaging people in their own events, the dm then gave them a dm event as a reward. It's also noted they've been out doing these kinds of things. The people he was training turn up to the event, get loot, plot hooks, and xp, but nothing more. You don't get that kind if reward for just being on a dm event.Did the sergeant find a note in the sewers, tipping him off as to where to look to learn of the smuggling ring, tell his privates to follow up on it. The privates do, they find undead creatures in the sewers, carrying Bloodstones, and further messages from the smuggling gang, being this information back, and together, they decide on a plan. A dm event then occurs based on this in which the sergeant and privates , plus some deputies find an npc smuggler and arrest him. He tells them he was working for evil mcgee (A PC!!!!) and gets executed for murder (as they found dead bodies and other evidence)
In this case, the sergeant gets a nice reward for passing down plot hooks and delegating, the privates get a reward in the form of a dm event, and once over, maybe a promotion. The pc smuggler gets a really awesome piece of loot or a new npc sponsor for being super awesome and creating some excellent intrigue. The deputies get the dm event, some loot, and to be involved in a sweet plotline. They don't get promoted or anything, you don't get that kind of reward for turning up to events.More clear?
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Im playing a minion right now so as a result i will get nothing from DM's.
This is kind of annoying to see written down and to be honest kills any motivation i have towards playing another one. -
That;s not what I'm saying. Also, it clearly states you get loot, xp, and the events themselves.
You just wont get promoted for being at an event.
Also, minions should have their own things going on. For instance, I played a minion who was trying to raise a shrine to their god, and summon an avatar of their god to the world. This was actually eventually achieved (though the "avatar" probably wasn't technically an avatar,) while being a minion, by linking in my characters plans to those of the leader, enhancing the storyline.
If we gave out rewards for being at events, then everyone would get promoted every couple of days, and also, there would be no rewards for people running their own plots, creating their own events, and engaging people with their characters storyline(s)
All that would happen is, people would wait for a DM event to happen, join in, and get promoted/a PRC/turned into a warlock/liche/avatar of a god.
That'd kind of suck.