Feedback on Lack of DM Factions/Introduction of Patrons
-
I am not begging for a dog.
-
Making this as to avoid derailing the other thread. So, a couple of questions.
1. Do you miss dm factions, and if so why? What do you feel unable to do at the moment due to the lack of them? Short of reintroducing dm factions how can we adress these lackings
I miss them but I think it is mostly nostalgia. They had good and bad qualities. I did think the guard factions were good for the server. The players playing in them were typically very good and deserve a lot of credit for making them work. Happy to give this new system a chance.
2. Opinions on Patronage. Is the system clear enough. If not, what needs clearing up? Are the npcs, possibible benefits clear enough, and if not, what needs clearing up?
Not enough experience with it to say. Seems clear enough. RP it right and maybe get a little help from an NPC if they are interested in what you're doing is my impression. Is that right? I don't really need to know specifics. It's RP so every situation will be different, right?
3. Do you find it easy to involve others in v5. If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.
Any version would present it's own challenges. DM factions might have, due to their perks or prestige, drawn more people to the same thing and made it easier for some players to involve people but I don't see why they can't adapt. We do have a lot of people doing their own thing so the server might lack for followers at times. I try and balance my character's goals with participation in others' stories to help mitigate this a bit. I feel like I am getting better at involving others as I play more. High character turnover makes developing long term relationships a bit hard. I have a very long list of acquaintances that are gone and I sometimes get frustrated and feel like I was more commited to someone's character than they were.(That's the way it goes though. Always has been.) I think DMs facilitating/enhancing a player's story telling in such a way that others get excited about joining in is what the DMs can do to help. Pretty sure that's what DMs are doing already.
4. Do you find it easy to get involved in v5? If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.
Yes. Most people are very inclusive and the DM team is very responsive and willing to help people.
-
1. Do you miss dm factions, and if so why? What do you feel unable to do at the moment due to the lack of them? Short of reintroducing dm factions how can we adress these lackings?
The factions were nice, but i think they were more geared for a larger population base, would like to see them again, but i am not sure it would ever be possible
2. Opinions on Patronage. Is the system clear enough. If not, what needs clearing up? Are the npcs, possibible benefits clear enough, and if not, what needs clearing up?i have no idea about the patronage thing, and am really too lazy to look into it, the drawings take up a bit of time for me now in my in game time, when people see me apparently afk, i am drawing and putting pics up on the forum (would love to get recognition for them, but i do it because i like to, inspite of being told once by a DM a couple years ago in a tell that "we" do not care about the drawings)
Also, related to this, two more questions.3. Do you find it easy to involve others in v5. If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.
I am finding it almost impossible to include others as i had in v4, but that is because i do not know my way around now, then i did, the only way i can include others now is to talk to them in game and try to do a drawing of them which i put up on the forum, and very few people really are interested in that, they are interested in plots, loot and leveling, the extent of my play with others is to find faces to add to my book, and then making sure to find out in detail on what to base the drawings off of, i will talk to others in game but only a handful have shared crumbs of information on plots with me (i really do not mind this because information can get you killed in game) last ones who involved me was someone in the people of that sands, i used to seek out new characters or new players (rare now) to help in game (and ooc) this is really impossible now at least for me
4. Do you find it easy to get involved in v5? If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.no, i am finding it rather difficult, getting gold is way too hard a simple fivestar like system would not hurt in my opinion(for someone of my play style, i am very regimented in the way i play, and i WILL NOT explore or quest without supplies, supplies take gold, no gold, no quests, i used the fivestars to build up gold in the past to get supplies to burn in quests, which the quests never replenish as i always spend more than i eventually gain) even though the areas have been centralized i am finding it difficult finding other people (if there are not a lot of people on and they have several quest trains going, you will be alone) as far as DM interaction, i try not to bother them, staying in the background if a DM even breaks out. DM events vary based on my observation, the ones i tend to watch are the ones that are open events in the city that break out when i am there, the ones that include a group on some quest are another but i do not tend to join these as they require lots of supplies (usually twice to three time the supplies required to do a difficult scripted quest)
Thanks, to all those that take time to offer feed back on all or any of these four. Can also pm feedback on this to me if so inclined for whatever reason.
-
1. Do you miss dm factions, and if so why? What do you feel unable to do at the moment due to the lack of them? Short of reintroducing dm factions how can we adress these lackings?
I do miss the DM factions, DM factions give you a broad outline and can last more then a single player, the problem with player factions is as soon as the founder/leader leaves within 2-3 weeks the entire pc faction caves in.2. Opinions on Patronage. Is the system clear enough. If not, what needs clearing up? Are the npcs, possibible benefits clear enough, and if not, what needs clearing up?
I honestly never understood on do stuff, Simple things such as resulting say doing things like negations etc i do not know what these things you want us to do.Also, related to this, two more questions.
3. Do you find it easy to involve others in v5. If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.
Well unless a scripted quest or a dm quest it seems people won't want to do anything much as a group if it involves leaving the citidal in most cases
4. Do you find it easy to get involved in v5? If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.
I honestly find it quite hard to involve myself in v5, i find players are more enclosed these days. -
"the problem with player factions is as soon as the founder/leader leaves within 2-3 weeks the entire pc faction caves in" What I find works is if your group forms a faction hierarchy, if the leader vanishes due to RL stuff or whatever, the person down the list takes over and so on.
-
1. Do you miss dm factions, and if so why? What do you feel unable to do at the moment due to the lack of them? Short of reintroducing dm factions how can we adress these lackings?
I do not, but I've made my opinion on DM factions pretty clear to those who ask.
For those who do not know:
As someone who was usually on the outside looking in, it never really felt like players were shaping the world around me. Nothing ever changed, (almost) nobody ever advanced far within those factions, and when things did change it felt like it was at the whim of some powerful, near omniprescient NPC instead of by player choice. And that didn't feel fun to me, it felt more like the players were a tool the DMs were using to create a story instead of the other way around. Some people don't agree with me on this, but that is what I think.Player factions have the opportunity to be wildly varied, are more heavily dependent on player activity, but in the end are MUCH more interesting because their goals are player driven.
2. Opinions on Patronage. Is the system clear enough. If not, what needs clearing up? Are the npcs, possibible benefits clear enough, and if not, what needs clearing up?
System seems clear enough. Do cool things, get cool stuff. Ideally, it will make thematic sense for your character, but even if it doesn't it can add to a characters story.
3. Do you find it easy to involve others in v5. If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.
Absolutely it is easy to involve people, if they want to be involved. We have some of the most powerful (And still accessible) RP tools we've ever had, in the form of Mythalite.
Sometimes you have to give people an incentive. Sometimes you have to hurt other characters, physically or emotionally. The new setting opens up SO much more in the form of character options, because of the fact that you don't have to join a DM faction or be stuck on the outside looking in.
4. Do you find it easy to get involved in v5? If not, what do you feel we as dms can do to aid this.
Sure. Yeah. See above. It's a lot easier to make that oddball character, because everyone in this setting is an individual. Maybe working in a group, but still an individual. There are lots of opportunities to gain allies and enemies, no matter who you play.
One thing I would like to see implemented better (and is possible, indeed, currently being done by players) would be a larger capacity for the players to change the world around them on their own. That is, the power to make decisions that affect the entire server without having to run it past a DM first. Things like opening up the council to PCs, or just empowering individual PCs who do cool things.
-
@ArabelsPhoenix:
"the problem with player factions is as soon as the founder/leader leaves within 2-3 weeks the entire pc faction caves in" What I find works is if your group forms a faction hierarchy, if the leader vanishes due to RL stuff or whatever, the person down the list takes over and so on.
Player factions usually revolve around personal goals of a character (or a small group, if it's a joint concept).
When said characters die, player factions dissipate. We saw it countless times in v4.I really appreciated DM factions for the sake of story continuity.
But we still have a semblance of DM factions, so I guess a reasonable compromise was reached. -
a larger capacity for the players to change the world around them on their own. That is, the power to make decisions that affect the entire server without having to run it past a DM first. Things like opening up the council to PCs, or just empowering individual PCs who do cool things.
THIS! This is key. Regardless of player-faction, DM faction, or solo adventurer… I don't want to remember that I did something (well, not JUST remember). I want to walk around and SEE the results of my labors. I want to walk by Caylee's Sunite shrine.
-
The Council is open to players - but as the ultimate pro-Arabel reward, it is something reserved for players who do make exceptional progress towards making the server an involving and exciting place to be. Three-Quarters was "one epic plotline" away from joining the Council, and has probably come the closest to doing so. That is not to say that is the only measure of success. Pale Sands did cross that threshold and were set to leave a mark, but through circumstances humorously tragic suddenly didn't.
Changing the module to compliment player activities is also on the menu. Major changes like addition of shrines are not going to happen without the player running an epic-enough character to warrant diving in out of left field to join the already established churches.
I will say, regarding the issue of a DM-lead server: this is entirely what we have sought to move away from across the wipe. It was perhaps something especially notable pre-wipe as literally across the span of years the server was slowly aligned in such a way as to allow as seamless a transition as possible (and then we still went down for a week…). That said, a purely sandbox environment proved less than ideal as well, which is what has lead us now to instigate a full-blown active metaplot.
Regarding player authority to act without a DM present: Agents have something approaching this. PCs also become "empowered" through politically powerful sponsors. Being an official church representative gives you a notable degree of authority - and also makes you a target for those seeking to discredit the church, for example. Due to the unpredictable nature of what may or may not be needed in support of such, it really is not feasible to automate this sponsorship. You get some loot, but NPC reactions may be retroactively done if no DM is online at the time that sponsorship comes into effect.
-
1. Do you miss dm factions, and if so why? What do you feel unable to do at the moment due to the lack of them? Short of reintroducing dm factions how can we adress these lackings?
I don't miss the DM factions but the player factions seem to disappear when the big mover and shaker that started the group leaves (I know there are exceptions to this). With the DM faction you had more stability and could keep larger numbers in each faction due to their permanence and not be as vulnerable to the faction folding when the key leader retires the character. I think the key to this is the patronage system, perks and a little bit of trust between the faction membership and the DM.
Player factions who expect to last more than a few weeks should really seek out a patron. Maybe the DMs can step in with a NPC and suggest how they might patron a group if you find some factions afraid of stepping up to ask for it. Maybe DMs could give players factions that reach some sort of critical mass or suitability test a glimpse at the NPCs that might be interested in using them to further their goals in some IG interactions then follow up with putting things in writing on the boards. Once again, I know there are some player factions with enough movers and shakers in them that they can just build momentum up to a glorious end game without begging favors off a DM, but most of us don't motivate and organize well enough to keep a faction afloat without some outside help for very long.
For example The Red Tigers have 5 players who quest a bunch and are doing some basic exploring and take a few people along. They occasionally get involved in plots as a secondary player but rarely the lead. A DM sees that they have some energy and some potential and approaches them with a NPC from Hardcastle who suggests they consider working for the good of the town in some capacity. Later another NPC approaches them about working for one of the city gangs and get paid real money for their efforts. Just like any plot hook, the factions can run with it and discuss what a proper patronage would look like or they can keep going it alone. At least the DMs did their part to try to move a faction to the next level of involvement. You probably do this stuff already- just throwing it out as possibly useful from a player perspective.
Perks: the base system is cool. Keep doing that. Once a faction has a patron, or a patron in trial period or something- give them free dyes for uniforms, free capes- some sort of uniform piece that they can pass along to new members. Maybe even minorly magical, +1 cloak of protection in team colors even. I know this is a little lame in some ways, but there are a lot of people who just do their own thing and end up helping a faction a ton who never sign on with them. It's just easier to keep your options open and not commit to a group. By giving a group who has at least made a step towards getting a patron some sort of tangible perk will attract more casual players to sign up in an official way. I think. It used to work way back with DM factions. Hopefully this would force more people into camps which fosters more PvP and cuts down on the too many chiefs issue that some times crops up where we don't have enough minions to fill the needs of a group.
-
formlessness:
player turnover; low player base; disjointed player base in time and space; lack of ability of players to regularly network in game (or perhaps more importantly, for players to network…with organization and logistical geniuses, factions thrive; but there is a lot of OOC work that goes into this, including reading and writing forum posts; it's too much for a single person to handle when life issues come up, usually, and then the backbone of the faction is broken.
dm factions and plots is one way to get a bunch of people on board, and to communicate/broadcast information to many people reliably. I find most players are concerned with their own issues/ plots, and therefore others are not as easily able to be included.
many things are found out 'ig'; there is a big difference between some of the involvement and experience with the server of different players, including lots of specialty scripts and rules and background info; faqs and primers that static 'factions' could have could help players get up to speed on some of these things. I was trying to do so for myself, but our faction forum disappeared so fast, and without warning, that I wasn't really able to back things up to make my own notes… and hadn't really worked on finding other ways to connect with other people in the faction, etc.
i was thinking of making alts to help with other factions in a more supportive role; perhaps in exchange for others making their own alts to help my main in a supportive role, at times. it's like everyone being a dm, a little bit. The point being, sometimes it is better to play with the players who are online, rather than try to force a particular agenda when noone who is involved with that is around, etc.
i was even thinking of making alts as like... red shirts... to basically die and help people gain some extra wealth (vs whitelighting a new character at the caravan to give your a body a ridiculous amount of gear before he reaches Arabel, etc) The point is, I think that is somewhat more realistic of the game; heroes and so on would be meeting and dying all the time; but it is nice if there are some who stick around for awhile, sometimes, too, even if they aren't important, major, or highlevel characters (Rav)
i think an ongoing sort of 'plots story', like the rumours, or the Arabel paper or whatever, would be useful...
but i think it would be important for maybe it to be somewhat streamlined, and put on a webpage/ blog type feed, vs having to search around in the forums with the right thread to find it... this would be a way to encourage and help new players get up to speed, etc.
This kind of thing would require a fair bit of consistent work, so would probably need to be distributed between a few people/ the playerbase, and there might need to be some dm editorial oversight.
with the twitter feed and facebook page, and google plus page, more connections are feasible now- potentially some sites and so on could multipost on different services with one click.
So basically, in summary, some things that might help might include:
1. improved player networking (especially for new players)
2. improved information and work flow, including information sharing about events characters might need/ want to know.
3. more consistent players and institutions etc in the game; or at any rate, some log or mention of changes that characters might be expected to hear about, ie the silver watch disbanded, the congress of faiths was burned to the ground, the Lords Council now operates out of the temple of the Unquiet Night, etc. i think many players would like to know when a character essential to their player faction has died, and moved on, as well. or is on holidays, etcI have to say I was pretty pissed when our Tir'Annundor forum disappeared/ I lost access. I was using it to keep track of the information I needed to help with/pursue plots, and then lost it, and with my poor memory, lack of personal notes, and player turn over, I was unable to continue to remember (let alone pursue) many plots which had excited me.
Also, I spend a lot of time on the server doing my own thing; lots of people are already in their own quest trains; I dislike questing with players I don't know sometimes, they may not do the quest slow enough for me to keep up, and I mean this in a number of ways, and this can lead to players being annoyed with me, me with them, and my character ending up in dangerous areas beyond his ability completely by himself. The lack of faction cohesion/ accountability I notice a lot of players -NOT- looking out for their faction members, like making sure they get healed and don't die. For experienced players, sure, for n00bs, you just dragged them in over their head and then acted like nothing as they respawned several times to try and keep in your quest train, etc. Not always like this, in fact probably rarely. But these are some pet peeves which make me wary of joining a group, especially when I am on the lower level end of the quest level range.
Dm factions provide motivation and support in supporting other players and n00bs, sometimes in functions that help run the server better (guards/ agents, helping deal with real griefing, etc)
more dm's would probably also help.
if there are problems recruiting more dm's, because that level of power can disrupt the effectiveness of the current dm team/ functioning, maybe stratifying the power into different levels might help, or functions or roles... ie bug and script testers, dm factions that help with player server functions, forum maintainence and work, player 'plants' to support dm plots,game of thrones and then sleep.
my short term memory is pretty bad, and i can't really remember what i've written very well.
i hope it is useful. -
was even thinking of making alts as like… red shirts... to basically die and help people gain some extra wealth (vs whitelighting a new character at the caravan to give your a body a ridiculous amount of gear before he reaches Arabel, etc)
This is an exploit which we've already had to ban a few people (random cheaters) over. Don't do it.
The idea of too many chiefs, not enough indians is valid enough. However, that is preferable to the opposite. Too many chiefs still allows for people of less than allied aims to compromise and help each other out against more pressing rivals - but if we don't have enough, the server comes to a standstill in a much less exciting manner.
-
Also, if you have a -legitamate reason- (such as backing up your own notes on various things from in game for your current character) to go into your old player faction forum, we can open it up to your for a few days so you can get your notes back out.