No other class but a fighter!
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I am starting to notice it, you guys saying that AI is ok are basing it on the fact that it should act just like the players do.
this is a sound point and what you say is true, players do it all the time, but there is something wrong with that pattern.
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the AI should not act like another player but like a monster living in a dungeon or wherever the thing crawled out of.
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Never Winter Nights is based off of Dungeon and Dragons and I can tell you now as a Dungeon Master for many (I cant even remember how many) games, Monsters don't do that. infact most monsters have there own tactics that involve serten triggers for example. Orcs are a proud barbaric race that feel combat should be a thing of pride and therefor are more likely to take the fighter first and ranged last.Drow however are dark creatures that attack from the shadows and target those who show signs of weekness or vision imparement in the dark.
I was hoping that sence I was on a neverwinter nights server (how branched off it may be) that you would at least use the basics of the game this started from.
Forgive me if I over thought it and made assumtions that there where people who honored the history of the game and not the tactics of some warlord….
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I was hoping that sence I was on a neverwinter nights server (how branched off it may be) that you would at least use the basics of the game this started from.
Forgive me if I over thought it and made assumtions that there where people who honored the history of the game and not the tactics of some warlord….
What's the point in this? Throwing insults rarely work in RL, how would it work in an online community?
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it's not an insult I was hoping that the game would be based off of D&D and I am truly asking for Forgiveness because I just want it to stop.
I am sick of people trying to tell me the AI is fine when it doesn't stand close to anything D&D would truly have to offer. in all honesty it is going the the other direction than what D&D is about.
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It's not D&D, it's a video game. Our DMs work for free to make our time fun. They decided to write a new AI, I'm no judge to tell if it was a good idea or not, but they take efforts to tweak it again and again. This has been going on for months.
You still have many valid options.-
say whatever you think politely
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decide that the RP here -what is completely unrelated to the fight system we use- is worth staying even low level
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decide it doesn't worth it, and try another game for a while
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change your decision later
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ect.
But making comments in a tone as if you were personally insulted by a rewrote AI system is both unpolite and makes little sense.
But to address your comment about the history of D&D, one might think it is the first and foremost thing to keep in mind, but there are plenty of people playing on this server, and probably most of them aren't here to religiously follow the basic idea of D&D.
For example I think it was made up as a simple system to play a roleplaying game with details irrelevant. The whole d20 system is silly as it is, with the fixed 1/20 minimal chance of failure and success of certain rolls and how probabilities change in 1/20 quantums. It certainly isn't something to make so ill-tempered comments over. -
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you miss what I am saying once again.
D&D is built a spacific way so that you have to use all the rules or you get a play style that doesnt make any sence. I am not saying that the DM's are lazy and that they don't try. I want them to look into getting it changed so players who like to hang back and shoot arrows can do so without worring about some monster stomping them into oblivion.
as for making rude coment, I started this thred asking a simple question and all I got back was a big shut up to my face. there are a few on here that have said I was on to something but the rest where trying to call bullshit where there was none.
I have talked to the DMs and I think they are amazing and even more they have told me they want more people to join arabel. frankly as a new player I can tell you that any new player who used to play neverwinter or wants to try neverwinter is going to get on arabel and think it sucks and then turn around and tell there friends it sucks.
I am trying to do you a favor and let you know that this is something you want to look at but if you want to throw insults at me bacuse I am trying to help then I am done and you can forget getting new players because they will be the same as me 90% of the time.
I hope you like the fact that arabel will die out, if not? then quit getting on my case for pointing out things that should change! -
Folks chill out, just a game and we were discussing something related to game and how there are some pain areas. Dont get too serious about it.
Today when I was drawing cash from my ATM, I got a message that the bank is giving me 20% discount on any electronic items that I purchase using their credit card. Awesome isnt it ?
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you are right.
it is getting a little heated and I am sorry for saying such things that might have insulted any one.I guess I thought to much in one direction and didn't think what others had to say. when I started reading things that sounded like people telling me I was in the wrong I got defenceve instead of asking why they thought that way.
So here and now let me be the bigger man and say I am sorry.
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I'm going to turn off all AI targetting functions relating to hit points, ac, ab, hit dice, etc.
Then you can all play WoW with your tanks, and enemies that only attack the ones closest to them, that they cant hit unless they roll a twenty.
I'm betting People find something else to complain about though.
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Everyone gets annoyed when there character dies your not alone but like any game you have to adapt your tactics to match the enemy,the AI is not that bad yes it's abit smarter and can be bloody annoying but it is still beatable with casters.
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Noooo, do not disable! :(
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It is hard to give any constructive advice when I do not know how the AI works (and I do not even want to know it, that would be big spoiler and chance to exploit). I do not think that the AI is broken, but it is certainly different to what we knew and exploited so easily.
Rogues are fine, they have plenty of options to survive, and with a bit of tumble, they can even roll around the fighters who can AoO the silly enemy to death. But when a wizard, who is not prepared for battle (using shonmann's example of the innocent bystander) stands still and he spots a hostile creature (who he cannot kill with a single spell, probably cannot even stop for a second) and the said creature ignores everything and everyone in his way to take the wizard out…well, the only choice you have to make is to use potion, wand or spell of invisibility. It happens way too often.
Perhaps a check could be added to see if that squishy person is just a commoner in rags or actually casted a spell that I have seen with my own eyes?If the wizard is in a quest or in battle, and one or more creatures break the line to go for him, I do not like it but it is acceptable, as many of you pointed out that is what most people do in a quest anyway. Ogre Berserkers, surrounded by 3-4 badass fighters, effectively cornering him, tend to ignore the melee threat and switch to throwing axes to kill the wizard in the back. It's like "I know I cannot win, but I will take one with me to Ogre Valhalla".
Perhaps I was lucky so far, but every quest I have been in the past two months only stealth chars or skirmishers went for the wizards, the fighters would not run past the elite bandits or orc veterans just to engage the bandit mage (or even elite mage). Flankers kept the casters busy (they tend to run away invisible), and when the melee opponent was dead, the fighters joined us killing the arcanist.
I am unsure if it is feasible or not, but:
- How about archer type of enemies target the unarmored/light armored characters first, run away from melee or switch to melee weapons if necessary
A tanglefoot bag is a nasty surprise as well. - Melee enemies target the melee characters as a priority, and if there are more enemies than PCs, some would switch to unarmored/light armored characters.
- Stealth based characters with sneak attack could try to sneak upon the mages / support characters as an opening move (same as PCs do :) ).
- Make it a ~75% chance to do these, and and 25% to do something unexpected...like, breaking lines and chase down someone in the back with little to no regard to his own safety.
- How about archer type of enemies target the unarmored/light armored characters first, run away from melee or switch to melee weapons if necessary
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There are in fact so many ways to get a mob off you or not aggro them: Tanglefoot bags, Balgran's Iron Horn wand, Gust of Wind, Goblin sparkcaster, Invisibility, Darkness, Sanctuary, Blindness,…
How do we recognize mages/scouts in a group of mobs ICly? We make an excuse that they wear light to no protective gear and might have staves or bows. But the truth is all of us metagame it based on the name of the foe before us - We have an advantage over the AI in that regards. We also have the advantage of knowing roughly what each foe is capable of since we faced them many times in the past.
The AI simply calculates that it is possible that the dude not wearing anything but robes and holding a stick might be in fact a wizard. If I was in the role of that mob I would target that Wizard or rogue first, fearing their capabilities. All you as player have to do is outsmart the AI.
Please dont disable the AI.
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I'm going to disable it and see how things look. It's a temporary measure while I look into various other elements of the AI I've been meaning to work on, including a real means for people to 'get aggro…' from mobs attacking said squishies.
Turning it off entirely will also allow me to see that it is truly the functions I've been tweaking that is controlling the targetting behaviour, and there isn't any other factors involved.
And by disable it. I mean disable the part that handles targetting, specifically the part which checks AC, AB, Hit dice, and other elements.
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I'm going to disable it and see how things look. It's a temporary measure while I look into various other elements of the AI I've been meaning to work on, including a real means for people to 'get aggro…' from mobs attacking said squishies.
Turning it off entirely will also allow me to see that it is truly the functions I've been tweaking that is controlling the targetting behaviour, and there isn't any other factors involved.
And by disable it. I mean disable the part that handles targetting, specifically the part which checks AC, AB, Hit dice, and other elements.
I have actually been looking on this with my Squishy…..I have been noticing a pattern.
85%-100%
Slings....{seems they hate getting hit by rocks more than by swords}
Item Spell usage....[Like my glass flute when used turns aggro to her.}
Bow Kills.....{ Killing with a Bow Aggros mobs}
Hidden spotted.... {If hidden and spotted they go for the one they spot hiding}50%
Mage spells....{Casting is a 50/50 chance to drag}
Just standing doing nothing.Have not see cleric spells drag as of late.
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personally, (even though I'm a noobie and haven't been here long..) I have never run into a problem with this kind of thing, every time that a mob breaks away from a melle fighter ( pc or otherwise) it is because the person being chased did something to prevoke said mob, (i.e running, shooting, casting spells etc.) I am not saying there is no problem, just that I believe you are over-stateing how often it is and how much of a problem it is, I agree with onim's earlier post that the mobs should behave.. well more like the mobs they portray, as a new player, I believe that it looks amazing and act's fine as a new way of fighting and honestly makes it a lot more challengeing, if you just want to run in there with the tanks, dps , and healers go play wow.
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85%-100%
Slings….{seems they hate getting hit by rocks more than by swords}
Item Spell usage....[Like my glass flute when used turns aggro to her.}
Bow Kills.....{ Killing with a Bow Aggros mobs}
Hidden spotted.... {If hidden and spotted they go for the one they spot hiding}50%
Mage spells....{Casting is a 50/50 chance to drag}
Just standing doing nothing.All of these except the last one are "events" for the game to fire scripts. Everything else in combat goes every 6 seconds or so. Even if a foe has a "base line" tactic assigned by INT score or whatever, each attack or spell can make him attack the foe for at least 5.9 seconds, up to infinity, even if scripts are telling it not to.
So everything they do at every event is already in the game or (in this case) modified; but still everything they do is written. Between telling the mobs to ignore being fireballed or chasing people around a bit too much, I prefer the latter.
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Let fighters run ahead en getting themselves killed…moa...Not really something that will get you famous. Start by stating you're a rogue and say that you want everyone behind you. I have used my darn chat commands just to keep everyone in the back while I took the traps.
(the mechanics are waaayyy off topic)
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I personally think the AI would be great if the monsters didn't suddenly provoke 20 attack of Ops and run straight for the wizard, who hasn't even rolled initiative yet. The problem isn't about the AI targeting squishies. It's about the AI targeting squishies, after the AI are already in the middle of battle with fighters and such.
As I said before, I don't see how you DMs haven't noticed this behavior. It happens -all the time- and I am more than willing to record the AI's bizarre behavior on several different quests if someone would just link me a program I can use to record such.
No monster is stupid enough(or smart enough) to provoke AoO and go after a single target, not caring if it dies or not.(Except maybe oozes.) Any creature dumb enough will just attack the nearest thing, and any creature smart enough will attack the squishy, but not if a fighter is beating on them. They will find a safe way to disengage and go after the squishy instead of provoking AoO's and "throwing caution to the wind" to his self preservation.
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Swifty is right here.. i have seen a mob surrounded by fighters hitting at it but it tries to escape to go after a range character.
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This thread is a train wreck. Did anyone even read the OP or just take the opportunity to rant and rave?
The AI? Really? Not even related to the OP.
As far as your concern, Omi, it's going to come down to who your with. I also play a rogue with a vast number of utilitarian skills and I can assure you my typical "group" makes heavy use of them. Bashing through traps costs HP. HP costs healing. Healing costs gold.
Bashing chests can destroy loot. Good loot. Or loot worth gold. Or potions that could later save your life.
Yes, you can charge through most things without a rogue. As it should be. And yes many fighters will CC skills for those times when a rogue just isnt available. But proper use of the party rogue will produce a long term benefit to everyone involved. More consumables, loot and gpz. Especially certain optional areas and secret rooms on quests that are loaded in loot. Cross classing Open Lock, Disable and Search just won't get you there.
People who don't realize this can be educated IC'ly by a number of means, and I'm happy to help you work up ways to go about solving the problem in character. Just PM me in IRC any time. We'll brainstorm.
The answer is not, however, to make a certain class mandatory for any quests due to IC negligence.