DM Announcement RE: Favortism Et Al.
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it is pointless to argue with dm here.. i have millions of exemple about it…
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I just wonder whether some of the commenters here have read the original post or not.
We said yes, we do have favorite **-characters-**who do awesome things in character and gain rewards for it.
This makes sense and is perfectly fair.
We said no, we do not have favorite -players- who get awesome loot, free xp, have every DM event tailored to them and never die for no reason other than 'we like them'
This is stated fairly eloquently in the original post I thought, perhaps not though.
What we are saying is, that any player, can have a character that receives great in character rewards (tangible and otherwise)
Any player.
Any.
Even the ones who have previously whined, moaned, or anything else (bar being banned, because they can't play)
Read the original post again if this still isn't clear, and then perhaps check out this link.
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bha.. there only a ways .. a Scientific ways to see this…Make a experience.. DMS stop give golds or magic items ...juste acting like ref and make the npcs react IG as they shoud depend of each situation IG..whitout ansering post on forum... ..... 3 months like this... .. Juste watch the rp of players and see what ic infuence they have on others and on the server lifes...see who creat the more IC stuff .. see who realy help this server to keep them players online and why...
the resulte of this experience shoud be realy interesting....
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Sounds like a quick way for a server to commit suicide.
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Well i heard the V5 will gone wipe out our characters and evry body gone start at 1 level..etc.. I DONT know if it true… but if it is.. . Until this. i dont see the fun to start new characters ... but maybe it a good moment to make experience too befor V5 come...
and no it not a suiscide... that how Arellith servers work FOR YEARS... .. and there 30 - 90 players online if you combine the 3 arelith server linked eachother by may IC WAYS... THE rp is great... and you even can make exp for your rp whitout killing monster and whitout dms help... many rp tool.. Towns anf faction tool for player leader named by the other players of the faction....need to eat . and drink...etc..and can reach 30 level...
Probleme on Arelith .. is the server setting is to aisy... exp lost when peoples die are to low .. to aisy to get golds...to aisy to survive... No scrypting Quests....so at the end it boring.. no trill to live.... but that nothing to do with DMS.
So at the end.. who DMS likes and give favor on Arabel.. is not so important for me.. if i compar of the fun i have to trying to stay alive when DMS not arond...
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"As I read through these posts I cannot but wonder why 80% of the player base is still here.
Have you read your own commentaries? Because let me address what I find a most interesting thing.
It occurs to me that no matter what a DM does, certain players seem to disagree, yet for some miracle they stay.
Now this is what I see when reading every….single....comment of bitching and occasionally, a DM saying something to point out what apparently isn't obvious enough for everyone to understand.""This so called "Favouritism"? Doesn't exist anywhere but in the mind. I wonder how many players would do a better job at DMing. As far as I can read, everyone seems to know better. (except the occasional sensible player.) Ladies and gentlemen, Dm's and players. Your comments seem endless backward and forward. Let's start considering what we find adding to the conversation of 'the practice of giving preferential treatment to a person or persons."
"This, gents, doesn't happen. Example. Amilia Corvinus, didn't do anything interesting except being sly. -No DM attention (this is an extreme example.)"
"Lorannia Shadowlady, paladin of Tyr. Was quite talkative to people in suggestive manners to change ways things went. (that she never succeeded is a different story all together.) I was with the sheriffs. Bingo suddenly in the middle of a DM event."
"Four weeks later, AGAIN. I never tasted a DM quest before and, might I add, It was enjoyable. Next character. No DM love."
"The point, this supports the claim of looking at characters, not players."
"Thank you for having the patience to read this ladies and gents,"
~Chairman Wesker
"P.S. Azazel, Starting something new is like a clean slate, new stories unfold. A "new generation" as some have said will start at V5. Certainly I can remake Amilia but fifty years older and simply have her take a harsher but more patient attitude....But where is the fun in that?"
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I'm a part-time player who has never really been involved in any plots or had a character that was worthy of any special attention. But I've found the DMs to be very helpful, open and friendly whenever I've needed their assistance or advice. So yeah.
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If any players, new or old feel they are having trouble with getting things done™ then you can contact me (or another DM, should they have time) -after- you read the links I posted above.
That is, if you want to try and achieve such things. Of course, if your having plenty of fun just doing your thing, then enjoy.
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@SpiffyHas:
Sounds like a quick way for a server to commit suicide.
You're not right. That's what they do on Arelith and it is one of the most populated and thriving servers out there.
That said, i enjoy CoA's greater level of DM involvement in character stories. Of course it makes DMs more vulnerable to favoritism accusations and critique in general. There are always trade-offs. -
I just wanted to put up my view about Arabel and kinda how I go about playing because I've thought about this kind of stuff myself.
Thist is kind of how Brianna White Started I spent a few days thinking up a back story, where she came from, struggles, her age and how she would react to various things. After that, I threw her into Arabel and I was Brianna. No ultimate plot or goals or anything I was just Brianna. I enjoy greatly having her react to the various things that happend around her, I just played her as herself I played Brianna as Brianna with no occ interfereence to achieve anything specific.(Not that there is anything wrong with that but chasing a set goal can be irratating when it may not work out as planned.) Either way, not long after arriving in Arabel some nut wants to kill her and use her to bait a friend into a trap.
Then within a few weeks of play, Brianna is in the Golden Wyverns and at that time I wasn't planning to navigate war and seige Arabel. I had no Idea i'd be helping a crazy lunatic (Rest in peace Dmitri (: ) burn people. I just kept playing Brianna as Brianna. Now Brianna has been through an amazing story that has been dreadfully brilliant because it's sucked like crazy at times and it's been amazing other times but the key to it was that I was in love with my characters story. I enjoy beyond belief marching up to some of the most powerful people and bluntly calling them out on things Brianna views as wrong (Viceroy Nine probably knows about this). I enjoy all the "Small" Rp events you know like, the talk with a close friend while you both share a drink or something.
So I guess what I am trying to explain by depicting my characters rp is that.
1. There is no such thing as "Small rp" Yeah slaying hordes of ebol things is fun, gets your heart raising but I love everything that happend to bring it to that moment. An example would be with Vigor and Brianna. Vigor taught Brianna exactly what she needed. Almost everything that Brianna has chosen to do in game was by effect of the Characters and "small rp". And you know what that Rp was? It was talks as they watched the sun rise, it was Vigor training her while it was snowing and Bri's ears turning bright red. All these "Small" Things shaped Brianna.And this ties into the topic because I get the feeling that unless a big epic event is happening then people just aren't interested. Unless they're rolling with the "Top rpers" And gettingi n Dm events then they're "Unsuccesful" as players. You'll -never- enjoy your character if your enjoyment soley comes from being well known and being in big Dm events. Is it wrong to take enjoyment in it if you are apart of these things? Na, enjoy it! That's why the Dms do big events (Or smallish ones!)! Just dont gauge enjoyment or yourself by how many events your in, or how many people think your the bestest at rping. Just be your character!
2. Dm interest/plots
I know allot of people have plots made up. And it kinda sucks when your plot doesn't exactly go the right way, or it's kinda slow moving. But like Zool said, the Dms are happy to help with these plots, but plots dont always have to be dm involving to be epic. This kinda goes back to the small Rp, Brianna in the Penal Legion is an example. What kind of plot would I have? -Freedom- This was Bri's ultimate goal with countless other smaller plots falling beneath it. What did this cause?! All sorts of things! Brianna's core of who she was remained the same but she was doing crazy things! Her attitude changed-Example, she was very moody usually rude and many viewed her as ungrateful for her chance at redemption. This sparked countless arguments! And it was a whole mess of things just that one part created a ton of Role play moments. Did I have to plot for it? No, I just played Brianna as Brianna and it came!
I am personnally no good at thinking up plots or events that I could help make or start that may cause rp. I just kind of build off of what is around me, I just play Brianna as she is and things come because Brianna makes them come by herself no master mind plotting required. And as it is Brianna has played a major role in forming alliances, she's helped effect the entire server in a -huge- way by just being Brianna. All of the "Small rp" events, all of her friends, her Golden Wyverns allllllll of these things pile into Brianna and lead to server changing results. Did I expect that? No, as I've said allot, I just play my character.
Sooo in the end, you're going to have more fun delighting in your character and all of their atributes rather then being part of Big Rp plots, and hanging with the "Top Rpers". This is in my opinion what the Dms are trying to say We dont pick favorites!!!! We choose the Rp that interests us and give it "perks" Perks to increase its brilliance! To make that character even more brilliant then they were before, they see something cool happen they wana make it cooler! And just because a Dm isn't involved with your character at the moment doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't cool. Things are fun and brilliant because you make them that way! Not because you got a nice ring at the end of it! Not because you get server wide fame and Dms make IG posts about your character! This is all the extras! And if you cant get past that then you're missing soooooo much! Your character is amazing because you decide it to be! You dont need Dms to tell you what your doing is cool! It is cause you make it that way! Has lots more to type but feels like she got her point across! I hope it made sense it's like my crazyness of ramblings but I think it's a good outlook and I hope it opens some eyes.
-FallenSky
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I'll just point out.
No DM has, or will ever say they are interested only in "Adventure & Intrigue RP" to the exclusion of all else. We like 3D, fully rounded out characters who feel like real people, not cardboard toons created to push a plot and then vanish.
What we do say, is that we will encourage and reward A&I. Why? Because players who do these, are doing something much more than just showcasing character complexity. They're getting other people into their character, both sympathetic and antagonistic. Players are now mini-DMs, telling stories that affect other players, who respond to it.
It doesn't matter whether you started off with a bunch of goals, or if they came to you naturally over the course of playing your character. No one is asking anyone to have a pre built road map of exactly how their characters should play out. Players often accuse us of wanting exactly that, but I've long since understood that regardless of how many ever clarifications we post, some players will read into it only what they want to read into it (ref. Moloch's post about some players not talking about their problems because it'll take away their chance to angst.)
Furthermore, this is an RP server. Deep, complex interactions, compelling conversations, these are their own reward, and they don't need us to reward it materially (though we do sometimes, when a scene is particularly compelling). If you don't enjoy these things, then I'm not sure what you're doing in an RP server. It is not a job or something "you have to do". If you're playing here, we all (players and DMs alike) assume you like roleplaying, that it gives you fun regardless of whether you're getting XP for it.
In a game where the DMs are not paid (I think too many of you forget that we're not obliged to provide all the things you take so readily for granted), and can commit only limited amount to time to DMing, player-player entertainment is crucial.
There are servers where everything depends on DM presence. Nothing happens without it. They rarely ever last long.
Players entertaining other players with their own stories is the only model for a PW that is sustainable, and is the only reason servers like CoA or EfU last as long as they have. Your famous adventure & intrigue are nothing more than tropes of a fantasy setting. Stories can get pretty dull without adventure and / or intrigue. Before the phrase drives you off in revulsion, try analyzing what they really mean.
Anyone can get involved in a "DM quest", because often the DM just picks whoever's online at the time. Anyone can get involved in a DM storyline because we go out of the way to throw hooks like birdseed. If you want to be famous, rich, important and powerful, then you need to do the things that affect other players in deep ways. Why? Because you're not the only one who wants that. Every player would like their PCs to be someone grand. Why should any PC get that privilege over any other? That's why they need to earn it, really earn it.
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Everything FallenSky said
I think it would help if people asked themselves "If all the DM's suddenly died horrible, unspeakably awful, horrific deaths, would I still want to play my character and try to tell my story?"
If the answer is no, I think you might want to think hard about a concept that will cause you less frustration.
But don't die on us DMs, we like you guys.
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Ok as layer whos been around a fair bit…
I've had character who've had close to zero DM attention, with other getting silly amounts. However I have had no lack of fun characters over the years and I think the "favouritism" can be explained away with few observations not everyone is aware of.
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The Dms play in fixed times like everyone else, there is some time zones were your chance of seeing a dm are fairly low, and others were its fairly high. The reason that guy might be getting more plots than you might be as simple as being on when there good dm coverage.
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Not all concepts are equal in getting a plot going, and what concepts have the best chances changing over time. If about 13 people have rolled up hardcore dwarfs, you plot base around clearing out frost giants from Thunderhome has a fair better chance of getting somewhere than if there you and one other guy with a bad Scottish accent active on the server.
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Don't be afraid to go for "best supporting actor". Around Christmas I was trying to play a elven leader and got no were (post warband elven concept overdose maybe). So I rolled up a bodyguard character and put a poster on the boards offering my service... I'm now involved in loads of fun plotz!!!
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Read the boards and look for people who are up to something and listen to sendings that are not quests. Even if the idea seems a bit away from your concept, try to find a way to connect into it, you might be pleasantly surprise were it takes you.
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Some random points with an introduction:
I am a strong supporter of DM activity as "refree" activity and storytelling, without getting too much involved.However, having being a referee for more than 15 years (sport and life) and having had to "judge" others' activities and performances I do understand that human nature, sometimes, tend to make us view things differently depending on who is on the other side of the fence.
This happens (DMs are here to enjoy their free time, it's not a job, they don't get paid and they have the right to decide where to spend their server-time) even if, in my opinion, in COA this is not a big issue nor a source of player/character discrimination.If you think, this happens to players as well: we all have our "buddies" whom we prefer to quest with/involve in our stories (timezone, personality etc etc) even if we change characters we often end up playing with the same players with different characters.
So why this wouldn't happen to DMs? I do understand why a DM might be inclined to spend time end "explore/analyze" the possibilities given by a new character of a "good player" (please allow me the term) instead that with a "stale consolidated character".Now there are some points that might induce players to think differently:
- a close contact between DM and players (not characters) is shown (screenshots),
- particular involvement in non-plot situation (i.e. I remember 2 DMs once that spend time to interact with a PC to arrange a their NPC wedding or something like that)
- recurrent raise/resurrection during DM events to a particular character, this, while I understand that may happen in case of overspicing/lag/whatnot, contradicts the spirit of the server where loot and levels are not important
- a strict ex play relationship (i.e. IRC or lots of Forum communication between PLAYER and a particular DM in forms of IC letters, etc etc)
Having said that I suggest all people (DMs and players and DM-players) to think about it and act accordingly: since the playerbase is very good on COA DMs are not necessarily needed to enjoy a good story or character run. If players are consistent and create a very good character be sure DMs will sooner or later, notice and give the needed/requested/wished additional attention.
I've always seen this happening on COA, this is why I'm still here after 9+ years.
Finally
- Not all concepts are equal in getting a plot going, and what concepts have the best chances changing over time. If about 13 people have rolled up hardcore dwarfs, you plot base around clearing out frost giants from Thunderhome has a fair better chance of getting somewhere than if there you and one other guy with a bad Scottish accent active on the server.
I disagree on this. It's not having 13 players rolling hardcore dwarves that make the concept viable, rather involving existing or new characters in your plan.
I may roll a single character to try and enjoy a concept that (sooner or later) will require a DM but if I manage to convince elves, dwarves, militia, Thond, DeSchurr that clearing Thunderholme from Giants is a good idea then I am sure DMs will give the necessary assistance! -
I've noticed that sunday mornings is a good time for random DM attention, few players online and when a DM is online often he/she will do random stuff on quests. But no sitting idle in the guildhall! Later when more players log in, there's often plots/quests running as well. Sundays are good :)
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It is interesting reading this thread, and frankly some of the comments hit a little to close to home. Right now I am heavily engaged in EvE, but I fully intend to return when EvE slows down a bit. That being said, I wanted to throw in my two cents.
I think a major issue that can occur on a server like this is perception versus intent. Lets all start by assuming that everyone has the right intention at heart, even if as humans they might make a mistake from time to time (regardless of what happened in the distant past). With that said, from a player perspective understand the DMs probably have a goal in mind and if something happens you dont understand approach them politely and ask. From a DM perspective, understand players dont have all the knowledge you do or know your intent. Perhaps the DMs can throw in some "obvious" clues as to why something is going on. It may seem a little over the top to the DMs, but one thing I have found is that in communications like these you cant be to obvious. I have an example below I was involved in a few months ago.
Example Interaction:
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A highly regarded villain launches an invasion of East Arabel from the slums. East Arabel mans up (with DM factions, NPCs, and DM Support) and a battle royal erupts between East Arabel and the Slums. Good times were had by all. The DMs even made a point of making sure that no one had to perma death over invisible looting etc. It was all very well done. However, there was a cleric of Tyche aiding the side of the slums during the battle (actively attacking East Arable PCs and NPCs). It was talked about during the battle and in its immediate aftermath. After the battle was over this cleric was in the Lady's House in East Arabel and walking around East Arabel (DMs oversaw it, so it was not a meta issue).
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Reality: There was a point to this. I have no idea of what was going on, so I am going to give out some ideas that could explain it. Maybe the Tychan church was strong enough to allow this to happen even though this cleric had moments ago aided in an attempted invasion and plundering of East Arabel. Maybe the cleric was a spy on the gangs and enough high level NPCs knew this that she was allowed to wander about. Maybe the Arabel police were weak enough there was not a damn thing they could do about it. Maybe the DMs were scrambling to keep track of a massive fight in two different areas with multiple NPCs and didnt realize who did what to the last person.
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DM Perspective: I am going to assume they know and understand most of what is going on from an overall perspective and therefore made sure the NPCs reacted appropriately. Or they simple got a bit overwhelmed with the massive brawl and may not have realized what the Tychan cleric was doing.
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Player Perspective: For a great many years Arabel was very LG. I realize that has changed, however there is still a strong sense of "laws followed in Arabel, at least overtly". So from a player perspective (one who is not in the know) you had a PC aid the slums in an attempted invasion of East Arabel, take down several PCs, take down several NPCs, and suffer no apparent consequences (welcomed in East Arabel). Given peoples tendency to jump to the worst conclusion in the absence of information, it could look like the DMs were not enforcing IG consequences for actions.
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Ideas On How to Improve This (Because Bitching Without Ideas Isnt Very Nice):
I have never been a DM so some of these may be a Bad Idea. First ideas for the players. Start with the assumption that the DMs and your fellow players have the best of intentions at heart. If a mistake is made, it is just that. A mistake. People are human and mistakes will happen, but assume good OOC intentions. If you have an issue speak up (politely and in the correct channels), festering tells and PMs to other players complaining about something are toxic. Now that I have said all of that, let me be the first to admit I have a bad habit of not following my own advice. Understand it will be HARD to do this. As a player you put a LOT of time and effort into your character. When something bad happens you dont understand, the first natural reaction (at least for me) is to cast blame or try and explain why it did not go your way. Try your best to understand this will be your impulse and to avoid it.
Second, for the DMs. Understand players dont have all the information you do (and cant if the server is going to function with intrigue which is GOOD), in the absence of information people have the unfortunate tendency to jump to the worst conclusion. Lets take the above example interaction, wave our hands and say regardless of reality the reason the Tychan cleric was not arrested is because the guard in East Arabel was way to weak to take on the Tychan church. An emote or NPC guard saying "you dirty so and so cleric, when we get enough power to break your church's stranglehold on this portion of the city you are going to pay". This does two things, first it lets the players know WHY IG actions were taken. It also provides players with an understanding of what would have to change before the cleric would be taken into custody (promoting plot). For the original example of favors given to one player, perhaps have an NPC or better yet a posting from time to time detailing some of the actions of that player. For example, upon promotion to high authority position X have a forum post stating "Awesome PC is given the position of Ubersness in Chief for the following actions ….". Again it lets other PCs understand the WHY and gives them some concrete examples of what to do in order to achieve similar results. All this has to be balanced with FOIG information / secrets, but I think it is important to make clear there is a reason or point behind what is happening.
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I'd remind you, if you want to know OOC why something happened, a DM will usually try to tell you or at least let you know there was an IC reason even if we can not explain it exactly. We also know we make mistakes, sometimes something doesn't make sense IC because it doesn't–but we hadn't through through the issue. It can't hurt to ask us.
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I personally don't let any of it get to me anymore but one thing that used to annoy me is the double standard heres an example.
Mr superdude does some super stuff and gets DM loot lets say an unnerfed belt of guiding light.
Mrs crappyevil builds up some conflict(gets some normal loot) then finaly kills superdude and a DM appears and says sorry this super awesome item that stopped all your death magic is to powerful for the server and takes it away.
That action is it you gave a player an item that is not supposed to exist in that format when the character was defeated the victor is not allowed the tool that were used against them.
Always annoyed me in the past now i just don't put the effort in to care.
Other than that i never had an issue if you do stuff to give others fun you get some help if you don't then you have fun without it. -
Its more like this from our perspective Amy Veln.
1). We give a player a reward for entertaining people.
2). Another player kills that character.
3). We don't think the killer has earned a reward for entertaining people because they were able to loot them.
I'd hope that makes some sense and clears up that its not a double standard, but just poor communication. The item is FINE, if you've earned it as a reward. It isn't fine as something floating out there to people who didn't actually earn it.
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@Amy:
… DM appears and says sorry this super awesome item that stopped all your death magic is to powerful for the server and takes it away.
Besides this being communicated incorrectly as Moloch pointed out in his post, I still believe it would offer a far more intense story if said character could keep said belt of uber but due to his actions that belt gains a nasty curse, basically nullifying its effects or worse :twisted: , which said character needs to work off doing some super awesome stuff and thereby "earning it".