Investment Vs Return
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Aelirenn Alenuath was a bright eyed, innocent, gently born elf who became a hard, bitter, tight-fisted, RH-hating elven faction leader. I rarely make apps because I expect them to be turned down. I may have miscounted, but I believe I have made 4 successful apps in 6 years, KotMS, Zhentarim, Red Hart (actually, EiG through squire, dosen't count), Titled Noble. Come to think of it, Sabbatine was a bright eyed farmgirl who wanted to be a simple soldier for the RH, but became a Squire, then Knight Errant instead.
I have never played a subrace, or had a PrC, or had anything "special" it is one of the things in CoA that seem to be "out of my league" yet again.
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Dunno, maybe your missing the point about that. Getting applications approved doesn't mean your character will be special, and being special doesn't mean you'll have DM attention.
Even making a good concept doesn't mean it (application character or not). I've seen many characters with well thought back stories, a complete set of personality, etc, and they didn't get DM attention. I guess one could say they were special, and they were fun to RP with, but that doesn't mean they'll get DM. It depends much on the DM's style, they want to have fun as much as we do.
Also, I don't know if you have tried this, but have you ever played a minion on a successful faction, with lots of DM plots? If I wanted DMs to see me, and I didn't figure out how to do it, that would be first thing I would do. Get in, see how it works, get some awesome RP. And minions can also have their plots, the point in RPing them is that you can tag along, and maybe learn some "know-how". I reckon your GMT could be a problem, though.
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I can relate to that i think my first character i really got applied i got into a faction i never even thought i get into. I tried for 4-8 months applying to be an Arabel city guard, before that.
O'louth wrote:But if you avoid PvP like the plague, than its going to be damn difficult to get anywhere. You cant move and shake the Tree without there falling down a few apples.
and this is what i hate…, you can't get anywhere without pvp... well to pvp and not lose you have to be high level, have lots of friends and Power build. i believe you can be a level 1 wizard pushing mad experiments or be a business man like Gino was without having (Level powers or PVP powers) to make you up.
I've always been against PVP to win because to do that it feels like (Makes friends while you power game up to level 8+) start doing openly bad things, Plan conflicts your sure to win.
Gentles is the first conflict i met in a long time who isn't "uber powerful"
As for factions, i don't find factions special..hell i quit a faction due to IC Frustration with the place. The only thing a dm faction gives you is a special looking uniform, Most people with PrC you can't see it on the log in screen anymore, subraces make you almost instantly hunted. Some of my favorite characters in COA life time were just in PC factions or worked for themselves.
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No NO NO! you do not have to powerbuild and be high level to come out on top in pvp! PvP does not necesserily mean COMBAT. PvP is conflict of all kind between players. PvP is ahrd to avoid because if you're not getting anyone against you, you're probably not doing much at all.
Player COMBAT however is a completely different matter and something you can avoid for the most part if you choose to do so.
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I consider Leva and Moonshadow shouting match a conflict or difference of character.
I consider PVP a pc ambushing or a one on one duel against another, in the attempts to either defeat or kill said player.
Just as conflict is determined between me talking to a dm possessed character and PVM(Or PVE) is me killing or harming said creature physically
That why PVP i do not like i could be a very well known swordman in the server or a powerful mage, that been here for years but maybe i just don't do quest…or maybe i had bad luck on a scripted quest and now i'm level 3 Fighter facing Let's say a level 10 pc wizard. even though by repuation i should stand a fair chance but due to mechanics or bad luck... i getting ROFLSTOMPED my character killed bescause of that.
Or you get ambushed by 8+ pcs no rp no chance for escape just a death spell to the face or a big sword through your gut as your body is looted where you could do nothing with no chance for escape
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@Kreyla:
I've come back to visit CoA. I say visit because I don't know if I intend to stay. Its still the same old CoA. Quests, random evil dudes, massive half-orcs, faction drama.
I see a thing in here already, boredom perhaps. but let's not judge this, first read on.
@Kreyla:
Across all my characters, I don't think I have ever received DM loot that did not come with a +1 behind it. My Australian timezone and the fact that I live and play in a "dead" zone means that my efforts almost always go unrecognized.
My time zone never has a DM, I think only once but that was sheriff time.
I have never had DM loot, and I have fun, plain fun. Bcause it is a chalenge to stay alive, to get and stay at least lvl 6 has been accomplished by me only once.I can make another character and on one Server I can make a character as good in sneaking buffing he gear ti'll maximum and nearly never be detected, or add everything possible to a weapon of choise and be impossible to defeat…
Now ask yourself; where is the fun in that?if you so wish overpowerd DM loot I can say nothing but why? what is your idea except kick everybody's ass until you are sick of it or get banned because of it. (second option very unlikely)
You are looking like me, you return because proberbly both of us feel at home here. Now read your post, it says (In my honest opinion and blindness to what matters) only complaints to what is happening.
Now I can tell you, if you find your adventures of your character, RP with other players trying to have fun and such not enough and you want a death as immortal as lurker Apep cipatil of the blind varlets leading an army on the mages guild. I can tell you, go home, get another game and play that.
If you can't find the simple pleasures in life and a normal day in Coa doesn't cut it anymore... then ask yourself.. "Why are you here?"
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No NO NO! you do not have to powerbuild and be high level to come out on top in pvp! PvP does not necesserily mean COMBAT. PvP is conflict of all kind between players. PvP is ahrd to avoid because if you're not getting anyone against you, you're probably not doing much at all.
Player COMBAT however is a completely different matter and something you can avoid for the most part if you choose to do so.
I'd like to point this out, because this post is coming from a man who you readily identified in your first post, Kreyla - the character with epic loot, half-dragon stats, and a player faction.
Just to reiterate what he said, you can avoid COMBAT in the PvP sense. Really. I've avoided it thus far with my current character because it's in his essential nature to shy from it. But CONFLICT PvP? Oh, he's all up in it - making nasty bulletins about demon-spawn walking freely in the city, pulling crazy antics against the Mage's Guild for shits and giggles - this is stuff that doesn't require combat. But I will say this - if you want your name to be remember in gilded letters as the Hero of Arabel, you can't shy away from CONFLICT.
Anyway, meandering back to the OP - BG gave some solid advice when he said weekends are key. They are the ultimate conflux point for varying timezones to come together and get shit done. If you want in on some time, log in with Aelerin (sp?) sometime and hit me up. I'll see what I can do to get you back in the loop, if that's what you want. I think you might be able to help with some stuff I have going IG.
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I used to feel much like you did..but that was a very long time ago, your time is what you make of it
I used to desire being with groups and have attention, now, it does not really matter, it is how and where you find and make your fun, i do try to avoid PvP, but that is a personal choice and play style which i have designed strongly into one of my characters
i have played here a very long time as well, and honestly i have felt as you have, but i have stuck with it, and have learned a few little tricks to make this server fun for my particular play style, if you want me to share them with you shoot me a tell any time i am in game, they may not be your cup of tea but they have helped me a lot
a persons view of "winning CoA" varies from person to person…i have never felt i have won, but in the same light i do not feel i have lost either, i have thrived in a environment that many have told me via tells in the very distant past that i would fail miserably at.
does this make me a good player? no, i am not good as a RPer..but i am adaptable and have learned how to adapt to the surroundings and maintain a proper level of fun. i pick up and mimic rp i see others do
also it is not the loot or the faction, it is the character, loot and factions come and go..they are all just ones and zeroes..well..so are the characters, but we give the characters life from our own side of the keyboard, i am not fully sure what others think, but i like to think i have done well being and not being included in factions. the one thing with any story..especially faction related ones and specific quests, is this: they will be tailored to a specific faction need or specific character, never feel bad if you do not get that attention... ..those characters are fun to watch and be around, but they never last, my characters are nothing more than secondary and background characters, but they have have one thing those other premier characters do not have... ..they are my secondary and background characters, and i would not trade one of them for a hundred premier characters
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I've played this server for close to 10 years from now, had characters in numerous DM factions but none of them ever made a significantly big impact on the world nor were they amazingly interesting. Does that bother me? It used to but than I realized it doesn't because I still had fun which at the end of the day is all that really matters.
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@SpiffyHas:
@O'louth:
But if you avoid PvP like the plague, than its going to be damn difficult to get anywhere. You cant move and shake the Tree without there falling down a few apples.
Bull.
You can be become extremely prominent by avoiding PvP and being a political leader. I haven't heard of the Golden Wyrvern Company crushing faces recently.
Far from Bull. If you avoid CONFLICT, which is what PVP -IS-, then yes you wont succeed in anything. Its the same in RL.
If your Ilmaterian wishes to build a home for homeless children of the slums, and the local thieves guild seek to oppose you, because you remove from them the basis of their recruitment, and you shy away because you fear you might get your ass kicked, then you will never succeed.If your politician wishes to be more than a paper pusher, then he will get involved in conflict. Because unless you are dull as hell, you will have thoughts and desires and dreams that go against the thoughts and dreams of others. If you then dont want to get your hands dirty and enter the conflict, then you will never amount to anything.
Conflict is what DnD is about. You may play a pacifist, and you can still get stuff done. Be inspirering enough, and you can likely achieve alot of awesome stuff. But if you shy away from conflict, then you arent contributing to the wheel of awesome, and because of such, you will never achieve greatness.
Also, Bull is a male cow, and not a valid approach to an argument.
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@O'louth:
@SpiffyHas:
…Bull...
…
Also, Bull is a male cow, and not a valid approach to an argument.If you cannot be civil in discussing things, folks, you will loose posting priviledges. Disagreeing with each other is fine. Telling folks their ideas are "Bull" is not.
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@O'louth:
If you avoid CONFLICT, which is what PVP -IS-, then yes you wont succeed in anything. Its the same in RL.
I see a bit of a fallacy here. Yes PvP -is- conflict. But conflict is not necessarily PvP. Conflicts don't have to be open.
Also in RL to succeed in anything without losing your face you actually are supposed to avoid PvP and resolve conflicts. Unless you specifically want to succeed in hurting people.@O'louth:
Conflict is what DnD is about.
For each his own, i guess. For me DnD is about playing a role of an imaginary character in a fantasy setting. And any role can be immensely satisfying - from a warlike hero, to a peaceful explorer, to a merchant, etc. I don't need conflict and drama to enjoy my character, but that is only a matter of taste, of course.
You know, like some people get bored and frustrated when there is no flashy action/mind-boggling plot twists/love interest in a movie and that's fine. But tastes differ, so you just find what entertains you personally. -
The OP wished to discuss the point of how you can invest alot of time, and feel you get very little in return, based on the subject of the thread, and based on the the written post, about the feeling of failure for not accomplishing what others do, and how one can invest alot of time and energy into something, and still miss the marker.
Because of this, I expressed my subjective thoughts on the matter. That I have been here for 8 years and more, that I have achieved what the Op wished he or she had, and that I aint an entire tool, allows my subjective view to be somewhat more objective than most, hence why I decided to give the Starter of this thread, and whomever else feel like him or her, some sound advice on how to change what they are feeling.
I should have written, what CoA and storytelling is about, is conflict. To me, and many others like me, PvP isnt mechanical combat such as you find on an arena server, but its another term for Conflict. The romance novel which doesnt have any conflict in it, is dull. What made Romeo & Juiet, Trystan and Isolde, was the conflict their love created. Because conflict creates challenges, and achievement comes when you overcome challenges. Conflict is the way we bring challenge to an online roleplaying game. Whether its the Paladin of Torm Vs The Blackguard of Bane in an epic duel, its politicians fighting for control, lovers on different sides of the war trying to stay together while the world pulls them apart, or merchants fighting for greater gain… What all of these stories or types of stories have in common, is conflict.
Achievement is overcoming challenges. Its why so many people who app for say, Half Dragon rarely made it through the first three weeks, because you have already won. Loot, levels, dont matter all that much with such a subrace. As such, they dont feel the satisfaction of overcoming the challenge to earn the reward. If you did a study, you would most likely find that the people who stay in DM Factions the longest, and enjoy it the most, are the most often ones who earn it, and dont get it from day one. Looking back, I know that is true for me at least, and i know many share the same feelings.
Now, what does this have to do with investment vs Return? That if you shy away from conflict, if you take the feel of outsmarting an opponent, or the feel of surviving an ambush out of the game, what is left? The dms wish you to involve others, and tell interesting stories. Interesting stories have conflict. So you can still play the server for years and years. But shying away from conflict with the rest of the player base, takes you out of the game for winning CoA.
My advice earlier still stands however. Attitude, Time, and Conflict. Thats how CoA has been won every single time.
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@Kreyla:
Tell me what I have to do. I want in.
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Cliques - They exist. They're there. And it's on purpose. They're called factions. They sometimes have DM support. However, what is NOT true is that there is only one "In" clique and it's elitist and won't let someone in. It's just not. There is a forum here called "Groups and Concepts" FULL of current player factions -begging- people to get involved with them. Offering free plot hooks, gold, loot, questing partners, etc. Several of these are led by veteran players. Then there are the DM factions. Same thing. Want to be "in"? Do it. Get in. Find a concept. roll something up to fit. Approach. Done, you're in. Come help me incite a rebellion against Arabel and form a NG society based on Nobanion's dogma in lands we've liberated from the evil and corrupt sheriffs and the vile and tainted blackblooded malarites. Join team Jergal and help them do.. death god stuff. Attend a Sheriff Bootcamp. Go ask to be a mage guild wyvern (warning, cyber may be required). Or a RH Squire.
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Applications - They're not hard. Write down who/what your character is. Goto a veteran player or two, get some review and input. Incorporate it. Then goto a DM and get input. Incorporate. And then another DM. And then another. And then submit. Join #CoACharacters. It has people who sit in their all day just hoping to help someone with a concept work out kinks. If the concept makes sense and looks to be one that can involve lots of people without the need for DM attention, you'll probably get. Start small with your requests and work up as you show them you're capable of plotting. I've only been on CoA for 6 months and I've played three applied characters. A special background/nobleman, a tiefling, and now a werelion. It can be done, and you don't have to have been here for 3 years to pull it off.
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Getting stuff done - Use the player plots forums. Remember, it's not an application. It's a "Hey! This is what I've done so far! This is some stuff I'm trying to do and how I'm going to do it!" so the DM's can get involved -if thay want to-. Do it once a week or so, send in updates to your progress. This is ESPECIALLY important if you're in a low player count timezone.
And that's how you get in. IMHO. Welcome to Team Awesome.
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I believe my most important lesson learned over the years (and I am quite confident a few DMs can attest to that since they had to suffer under my learning process ;-) ) was that CoA is not about winning, it is about telling a story. Yes, it is helpful to have levels, loot, coin but I found that once you are starting to tell a story, get others involved, create conflict .. the rest appears automatically since the DMs will notice what you are doing and help you along. Once your character died, no matter at which part of his story, and you can lean back and say wow, what a amazing story - then you have won.
The biggest "win" I ever had on CoA was Osynthir who pulled many into his story, pushed meta plots along, got trapped in a hopeless situation and at the end sacrificed himself for his people. It was awesome. Completely not what I had envisaged for the character but the story was one hell of a ride and I am still thankful to all the DMs that helped that story develop. I personally have the tendency to invest a lot into a character and then hang on to it, sometimes (well … really always to be honest) longer than needed since the story or the journey has come to an end. I have started to imagine my character stories as books with chapters and at one point the last chapter is written and it is good. The End.
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throkm makes a great point.
Telling a great story is the ultimate reward for a character.
That said, if you want DM attention and support to help make awesome things happen, DMs continually expound on what they gravitate towards and makes the game fun for them. If you want that attention, you simply must do those things.
That said! you should be able to have a ton of fun playing your own style as well. CoA does try to give room to everyone for everything. If you want a return on your time investment, then figure out what you want, what you should do to earn that return, and do it–or realize that you should adjust your goals because you don't want to do the actual investment.
I mean, if I want money, I need to get a college education or a good job. If I'm not willing to do that, I won't get money. If I want a lover, I need to have good hygiene and visit places where I can meet women. If I want a good job, I don't tend to visit places where I can meet women. In both cases, you make an investment, but if its the wrong investment in the wrong way, it won't get the right results.
Way too many people in CoA who get frustrated and burned out are making the wrong investments in the wrong way and not seeing it won't get them the right results. Either adjust what you're doing or adjust your expectations--but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.