Discord and censorship



  • I am going to express my displeasure at a recent incident in discord where people were talking when a DM comes up and straight up tells us to stop talking about the subject.

    [9:23 AM] DM: This conversation ends now
    various stuff
    [9:25 AM] Citizen Bane: Question... was something offensive said that made this convo die?
    [9:27 AM] Citizen Bane: DM NAME?
    [9:27 AM] DM: Alright lets put it simple, a DM asked the conversation to change. The cause whatever it may be has nothing to do with anyone

    Some things were said after where people expressed their displeasure at being silenced like this for no reason. I realize discord is not a public forum and not subject to any freedom of speech laws, but when a bunch of people are just being basically told to shut the fuck up (in more polite words) and when they genuinely ask why or if someone was being offensive, they're basically told to stfu again. I certainly don't appreciate being treated this way and obviously several others people do not either, i even received a few PMs where people said they didn't want to make a fuss because they were afraid to get BANNED.

    What's going on here? I realize no censorship is terrible but too much of it is even worse. How long until players stop logging into discord if DMs are just telling them to stfu (in politer words) on a whim and people are legit afraid of being banned if they say anything?

    This kind of thing is a big deal to me and i just want to say this is a terrible way to manage players (in my opinion)



  • I agree with CB, I feel like that line of thought where "I won't tell you why I'm saying shut up." is extremely out of line.



  • I 100% agree, and I was arguing with you. It was a nice discussion and people were keeping polite about it. The argument could be made that it could have degenerated into something flamey, but if anyone has seen the Discord, so can just about anything so lets not use that as some sort of defense.




  • DMs

    I will just reiterate what we always say.

    Mods have the very unenviable task of maintaining a positive and polite community chat space for people with a huge variety of views and past experiences.

    Mods will sometimes ask that a conversation end if we have to make the highly difficult and subjective decision that this conversation is probably going to, or even has, crossed a certain line.

    Its super easy to backseat quarterback in those situations.

    But since we're all adults, it shouldn't be too hard to say, hey--I'll chill. Its cool. I can take this to a more private chat space.

    Seems to me the real issue comes down to feeling like arbitrary power was wielded over you; and yeah, that's rough man. I get it it. Was venting on the forums though really the best way to handle the situation? Could it be more easily resolved by speaking directly with the individual in question to understand first? And then if there was a problem, perhaps just talking it out with the rest of the moderator team?



  • I think it was brought up because it isn't a one off offence - and not just that but that, yes, since we're all adults, can't we police ourselves? If someone is being a dick, we should be able to say "stop being a dick" and they likely will. The problem isn't that the DMs/Mods have "arbitrary power" over us, we kind of accept that you guys have the final say, but mostly that if we get told to shut it, we'd like to know why and what we did wrong over just having to stop.



  • Surely if a DM sees a reason to stop a conversation a reason should be given, especially if they are asked what the reason is because noone knew why said conversation was killed.

    And everyone DID chill and dropped the subject at hand.

    And yes, i decided to put it on the forums for more people to have the option to chime in because this has come up before where it was much better handled after several players voiced their concern over too much censoring. Not to call anyone out but to discuss the subject and the problem some people, me included, have with any policy where a discussion is killed because someone could possibly say something offensive, because that could happen in -any- discussion.


  • DMs

    Well, since you want to know what happened here its easy as this:

    1). Someone with a HISTORY of being offensive about a topic, who is very close to a Discord if not game ban for being offensive and border-line toxic, was having a conversation about that very topic. I've been approached by about 10 people the last month asking why they aren't already banned, and pointing out while they often push the borders and are edgy, they do not seem to actually cross the lines--but if they do--I would enforce our rules and remove them from the appropriate spaces.

    2). Some people involved in that conversation had already said some things they probably should not have in a positive and friendly public chat room for a roleplaying game. They were all privately told this, so that no one was singled out or publicly shamed for just talking, but rather got a chance to just hear the bigger picture and talk it out one on one like adults do.

    3). A DM came in and said "This conversation ends now". They could have said "Hey, folks, can we please change the subject. This conversation is probably going to cause problems for people."

    Only do we need to tone police the DMs while complaining about them tone policing? There's some irony in this!

    Anyway, that's probably all I have to say on the conversation because I don't feel like getting drug down into an "I'm offended someone finds me offensive because people need to toughen up and not be so offended" argument which is exactly what this turned into in Discord when I tried to address it there. I just want to be clear we have a very open policy of saying "be nice, and realize you're literally in a public chat room where we have mods who will have to occasionally make tough calls and err on the side of caution in situations where you only know about 10% of what is going on and we know more like 85%".

    Try to just respect that if you can.



  • I'm going to step away from the thread and game for a bit, i'm not going to take that bait you just threw out. I feel this has become way too personal and not from my side.



  • I'm going to be honest, Moloch - what happened in Discord was not a lot of people saying "I'm offended someone finds me offensive, why aren't people thicker skinned", it was you overreacting to what players were saying. In both instances, conversations were occurring where no one was insulted and the flow of conversation was only interrupted when you did it, which is where the backlash came from. I'd go as far as to say the conversation only turned bad/toxic when you insisted that we were acting like "triggered teens" and suggested the only reason we were talking about what we were talking about was to "push the envelope" rather than just because we were talking. From our viewpoint, even if its only the 10% you claim, it feels like someone just came into the conversation/debate we were enjoying, told us to stop and when asked why, the reason is because X COULD offend Y even when Y said they were enjoying the conversation.



  • Way out of line, Moloch. Jesus Christ, you don't EVER share information like "who's close to a ban" publicly, especially not when it's a blatant lie like that.


  • DMs

    @vagabond3103 said in Discord and censorship:

    I'm going to be honest, Moloch - what happened in Discord was not a lot of people saying "I'm offended someone finds me offensive, why aren't people thicker skinned", it was you overreacting to what players were saying. In both instances, conversations were occurring where no one was insulted and the flow of conversation was only interrupted when you did it, which is where the backlash came from. I'd go as far as to say the conversation only turned bad/toxic when you insisted that we were acting like "triggered teens" and suggested the only reason we were talking about what we were talking about was to "push the envelope" rather than just because we were talking. From our viewpoint, even if its only the 10% you claim, it feels like someone just came into the conversation/debate we were enjoying, told us to stop and when asked why, the reason is because X COULD offend Y even when Y said they were enjoying the conversation.

    I am very sorry I offended you Vagabond.

    That said, can we just talk it out one on one? Its pretty easy to resolve a situation like that in a personal conversation and not a situation where you publicly call out and shame me in a situation where I can not easily respond without having to deal with multiple people coming into the situation? Like Mortui did, because his comments are entirely inappropriate and put me in a defensive position that I do not enjoy being placed in when my only goal is to maintain a positive environment where everyone is welcome and its not easy to do that.



  • @mr-moloch

    I am very sorry I offended you Vagabond.

    I mean, you saying that makes me think you didn't read the post. I'm not offended, and yeah, we could talk one on one but if you out and say, in a general chat a general sweeping statement, why would I switch to PMs to discuss it if its IN a room directed to everyone in the room? If it was directed at me, I'd gladly take it to PMs but it seemed more like it was directed to everyone.


  • DMs

    @vagabond3103 My point exactly. You think I didn't hear you, I think you haven't heard me. Its not something we resolve on a forum; its the kind of thing we can just take privately if there is a problem.

    You're also bringing a second, entirely new issue into this thread about things I said after the "censorship" incident. So again, I'm sorry you're upset by what I did, bothered by what I did, or feel I did something wrong. I think you do not understand what my purpose was in what I said, and if there is an issue am inviting you to discuss it with me one on one. If its not an issue, I'm happy to let it go. Like I said, I've said my piece on the original topic--and when pressed for details--gave as much as I can without singling people out directly (despite Mortui's blatant claim otherwise). So I'm all done here with this particular situation on a public forum.



  • Haha, you guys...This thread reads something like this;

    Censorship is bad!

    Wait, now I'm offended by what one of the dms said! Censor him!

    I'm going to leave that bit of irony alone going forward, just wanted to point that out.

    The thing about the general discussion of discord is that we want it to be a safe space for all. What that means is that whatever religion you prescribe too, whoever you choose to sleep with, whatever world leader you support, whatever gender you associate yourself with compared to the one you were born as, or anything else along those lines, you have the right to be you in our community and not worry about other peoples less then favorable opinions coming down on you like a tidal wave. And if any of our players disagree with that stance, all I can say is sorry, that's non-negotiable. We are trying to build the community back up with the EE, and that means being more welcoming to EVERYONE.

    That being said, I firmly believe that the way people of differing opinions come together is through conversation, and the politics room allows a lot more freedom to say what you want (as long as its civil). The difference being that people who might get offended can simply not look at that tab, as opposed to it being forced on them in general.

    So, if you are asked to take a conversation to politics, or end the conversation, or whatever by someone in orange or blue- Just do it. If you feel like the person trying to moderate the room is overstepping, copy and paste to another dm. We are not perfect human beings, and we have conversations about overstepping with each other all the time. But publically attacking the DM who is only trying to protect other players whether they are overreacting or not has got to stop.



  • Hi, what about people who insult people by calling them "Whiners" or to "Stop Whining"? Because I can assure you, both has been said to me repeatedly before. On a lesser note, what about things like "Git gud nub" or the short form "git good" or "git gud" which were also repeatedly used in 2017.


  • DMs

    @thune said in Discord and censorship:

    Hi, what about people who insult people by calling them "Whiners" or to "Stop Whining"? Because I can assure you, both has been said to me repeatedly before. On a lesser note, what about things like "Git gud nub" or the short form "git good" or "git gud" which were also repeatedly used in 2017.

    This seems pretty unrelated to the thread, but like anything, if you’re having OOC issues with other players in the community, take it to the DMs and we will deal with it. That’s why we’re here!



  • @thune said in Discord and censorship:

    Hi, what about people who insult people by calling them "Whiners" or to "Stop Whining"? Because I can assure you, both has been said to me repeatedly before. On a lesser note, what about things like "Git gud nub" or the short form "git good" or "git gud" which were also repeatedly used in 2017.

    We've been policing that shit.


  • DMs

    Personally I feel it is the responsibility of the offended to speak up and say, "I find that offensive, please stop." However, not everyone is as bold and assertive as others and will rather suffer in silence than draw attention to themselves, and we're trying to make this a place where those people can ask for help on Discord as well.

    We do not want a toxic community. We want an open, welcoming community. We want a community where we can shoot your mom jokes and laugh about instead of thinking that 'you called my mom fat, die!' We want a community where people can comfortably talk about a wide myriad of issues.

    However, what may be offensive to someone is not offensive to someone else. I personally don't give a flipping flying fuck if jews really killed Jesus Christ, but some base their entire world view on this anti-semetic notion that the jews are taking control of the world and shit. Should we allow this person to display his beliefs? Where do we draw the line?

    It's not terribly hard to move the discussion elsewhere. The argument but it will 'splinter the community' goes both ways- letting you discuss this in a public forum WILL splinter the community of people who don't want to voice an opinion- they will simply go elsewhere to talk, achieving the same result anyways.


    TL;DR, I wanna run quests where Mortui and HellzYeah dies in exploding goblin hell, not moderate discord. Just change topics when asked and if you want to continue the conversation, go to News and Politics. where people are expected to debate and share their world views and be opinionated assholes about white privilege.



  • @captainfantastic said in Discord and censorship:

    Haha, you guys...This thread reads something like this;

    Censorship is bad!

    Wait, now I'm offended by what one of the dms said! Censor him!

    I'm going to leave that bit of irony alone going forward, just wanted to point that out.

    The thing about the general discussion of discord is that we want it to be a safe space for all. What that means is that whatever religion you prescribe too, whoever you choose to sleep with, whatever world leader you support, whatever gender you associate yourself with compared to the one you were born as, or anything else along those lines, you have the right to be you in our community and not worry about other peoples less then favorable opinions coming down on you like a tidal wave. And if any of our players disagree with that stance, all I can say is sorry, that's non-negotiable. We are trying to build the community back up with the EE, and that means being more welcoming to EVERYONE.

    That being said, I firmly believe that the way people of differing opinions come together is through conversation, and the politics room allows a lot more freedom to say what you want (as long as its civil). The difference being that people who might get offended can simply not look at that tab, as opposed to it being forced on them in general.

    So, if you are asked to take a conversation to politics, or end the conversation, or whatever by someone in orange or blue- Just do it. If you feel like the person trying to moderate the room is overstepping, copy and paste to another dm. We are not perfect human beings, and we have conversations about overstepping with each other all the time. But publically attacking the DM who is only trying to protect other players whether they are overreacting or not has got to stop.

    Noone was offended by anything the DM said, it's simply a very weird , un-CoA way of dealing with things. If that sort of behavior was something we were used to seeing, people would hardly be surprised by it, would they? The opening irony also completely misses its mark.

    What DM was publicly attacked in this instance? If it's my post you're referring to, everyone involved -did- drop the matter immediately. Several people voiced their displeasure quite publicly about just being told to stop talking without a single explanation given. Why is it a bad thing to talk about concerns over overpolicing the discord channel in public or an uneasy atmosphere of some people being afraid to voice their opinions about it out of fear of being banned? Isn't that sort of atmosphere a large concern?

    If something is out of line, it's the simplest thing in the world to just say a reason, people can agree with the reason or not but will go along with it, in this case however, it's simply said:

    • "Alright lets put it simple, a DM asked the conversation to change. The cause whatever it may be has nothing to do with anyone"

 

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