DM factions vs Player factions
-
Why couldn't this have been done sooner? :( Like when I still played.
-
-
Yes please.
I would also love to see some means to distribute earned faction items for Player Factions, without the need of a DM.
-
You guys overestimate player factions. It's my personal opinion as non active DM, but I don't like them. They come into existence on the spur of the moment and die once the leader is either gone/dead. You all have seen the consequences of Arabel changing one leader after another. Now imagine what would happen if, along with the King/Queen, the Sheriffs, Red Harts, MG, CoG would too change every month or so. What kind of setting would result? DM factions are the way DMs can use to grant the setting a tiny bit of consistency.
-
Player factions will need tobe built around characters that are much longer lasting than some of the recent "heros" for them to work and usefully occupy an HQ in my opinion.
-
Player Factions are not wholly viable for a more PvP-oriented server.
This is where people are divided - Some want more PvP with an emphasis on DM factions and some want less PvP with an emphasis on Player factions.
You'll never get the two to agree with eachother.
-
DM created NPC leaders. No application to get in, impress leader, get access to HQ. Once this is done, players can run faction how they want it. DM NPC simply sits back and reaps any benefits.
Easthaven?
-
Personally, I don't think the greatest hurdle involved in making a player-faction "succesful" would be overcome by having the ability to take up hide-outs - especially if everyone can get them, because then there will be nothing special about it. Player factions have used the various spawn points for "hideouts" in the past anyways, from the Broken Bottle to the Pride to the Bloodied Axe.
@The:
You guys overestimate player factions. It's my personal opinion as non active DM, but I don't like them. They come into existence on the spur of the moment and die once the leader is either gone/dead. You all have seen the consequences of Arabel changing one leader after another. Now imagine what would happen if, along with the King/Queen, the Sheriffs, Red Harts, MG, CoG would too change every month or so. What kind of setting would result? DM factions are the way DMs can use to grant the setting a tiny bit of consistency.
On the one hand, I agree with this: you can't have a setting solely built on player factions.
On the other hand: a player faction is more enjoyable to be in because it itself is consistent. When a player logs in and logs out still in the same faction, they keep track of what is going on, who is saying what, and act accordingly. With a DM faction there are times when the faction's consistency appears to be sacrificed for the sake of the server's consistency - as you say, not having a new ruler every other week.
From a macro-scale view, having a consistent server may be more desirable. From my perspective, I am really not interested in a faction that is not consistent. This is a little unfair to say since inconsistency is not often intentional, but that doesn't make it any more enjoyable when it does happen. When inconsistency arises from a high ranking member it is especially vexing - and since all the faction leadership are NPCs, this happens too often.
I am not so concerned about player faction support, but player support. I like a system where NPCs are largely in control and vying for power. I don't like playing a minion, though, and yet that's what ends up happening in a DM faction sometimes - everything is handled above the player's control and they just ride the train around to the next stop. They might try to do something to cause change but the faction itself will almost always stay resolutely to its course, come wind or rain or thunder - unless an NPC-level decision is made to change the faction direction, in which case the entire lot will be driven kicking and screaming to it.
The best systems I've seen for how a DM might be involved in a faction are:
Easthaven
-DMs represented a community rather than necessarily superiors
-Players were given free reign to attempt whatever they would to win the community to their side
-Whether by running an inn or demanding human sacrifice, you would get a response from the community - and surprisingly, it was never an outright "no", even if responses weren't wholly positive.Cartel
-Once again, players were given free reign to attempt whatever they would.
-A shadowy NPC sponser could be contacted to help out with schemes. (eg. supply the beginings of a mob for a malarite rally)
-The NPC had a few basic likes/dislikes made known: he did not like elves and was not fond of the status-quo.I would far prefer EITHER of these to a player faction, because they had the best parts of player and DM involvement in my opinion.
Note that niether of these had an explicit requirement for members to be allies or groupies or even friends. There was room for it, but as one was generally neutral-ish and the other was secret, the situation never turned into Team Red vs Team Blue, but you instead got very lively competition within both factions. -
Consistancy is something that Arabel really needs. In it's NPCs, it's setting, it's DMs and their policies, in storylines, in plots - in everything.
-
The days when that could happen are likely gone though. You have four unmoving factions, which means four brick walls to plot against. I dont see anything changing any longer.
-
@O'louth:
The days when that could happen are likely gone though. You have four unmoving factions, which means four brick walls to plot against. I dont see anything changing any longer.
But then again you may not see all that is moving…. :wink:
-
Is it feasible that Player factions could become DM factions after proving themselves over a set period of time (two months?) while stagnant/underepresented/defeated DM factions could be cycled out/down? I agree that the major factions should have a high degree of consistency, perhaps once a faction has risen to dominance they can't be usurped for a minimum of four months? This gives them time to establish both a powerbase and some meaningful opponents (though theoretically the developed some opposition during their rise, too.) I think this would strengthen the potential role of player factions, encourage heavier recruiting, build natural rivalries (if, say, the Congress of Spells managed to kick the MG and Wyverns out of the tower and replace them as the premiere authority on all things arcane within the city, ten bucks says that over the next few months the MG would scheme their asses off to retaliate and get their tower back - as an example) and prevents stagnation. I think this allows the DM's the consistency they need to craft overarching storylines for the world as a whole while still encouraging players to create intriguing factions with a serious chance of achieving infamy down the road (not that they can't now, but I think this might broaden their goals a bit.)
-
Its possible sure. There have been factions in the past that have come close to accomplishing dm faction status.
-
I don't think that the two things have to be mutually exclusive.
I don't know that you have to really cut back on DM factions a lot to allow for easier player factions unless it is a matter of actual server numbers, i.e. bodies to fill factions of either type.
DM Factions:
LEADERSHIP: I do think that you can reduce the number of DM factions with some consolidation and that would probably be good. A city should really have a central leader body of some sort, even if it is a bickering council. Whether a group, an individual, or some combination, somebody really needs to be in charge at least in theory or on paper. (this helps shape the overall open structure of the world)
LAW ENFORCEMENT: Whatever this ruling body is, it should have an enforcement arm (read: Militia type institution) and it should have some way of protecting its borders (read: Army type institution). To simplify and downsize, they could be the same with their own wizards/clerics/scouts/spies/whatever. One big guard faction to rule them all. (this helps maintain the overall structure of the world)
JUDICIARY: If you have crime and law enforcement and a government, you should have someone that does the Judge thing. It could be Knights, Judges, Magistrates, or just handled by the Law Enforcement of the Government leadership, but you'll probably need this sort of thing (this helps balance all sorts of things)
RELIGION: Churches should be at least DM influenced with a head priest and some other minor NPCs as structure, but it should be far easier for players to join and not necessarily exclusively. For those DM factions like churches that had active and well-played characters in it, the DMs could severely back off on the guidance without much concern and let the players shape things. For those churches with sketchy support/interest/characters, they might need more guidance and supervision. (this helps maintain the morality of the world and its balance)
UNDERWORLD: There should be some sort of organized crime run by DMs. Thieve's Guild, some sort of syndicate, pirates, bandits, whatever. (this helps balance the guard faction and thus the balance of the world)
MERCANTILE: Optionally, you would have some sort of organizations that were DM managed at some level that dealt with the economy. (this helps balance the value of money in the world) (this is arguably the least important to have actually represented as money can be modified without having a physical manifestation of a group)
DM-Lite Factions:
These factions could have DM support but are tied in some way to DM factions. They are related to DM factions and answer to them in some way for their perks, but they are mostly run by players. The more they contribute to the DM faction that sponsors them, the more they are active, the more rewards/benefits they could receive. This could be a graduated scale from starting with a small building with no keys, to adding keys, adding storage, larger headquarters, NPC guards in HQs, to perhaps one day becoming a DM faction mostly controlled by players. They could be things like:
- Smaller guilds gangs of criminals that pay dues or work for the main crime boss in exchange for jobs, money, gifts, influence, bribes, whatever.
- Smaller shrines or churches to lesser deities. They could answer to a NPC in another unrepresented city who could provide some influence and oversight with players doing most of the work.
- Mercenary groups. They could be hired on temporary basis to accomplish tasks for City Leadership, Larger Churches, Law Enforcement, mercantilism, or even the Underworld. The sponsoring group could provide resources in exchange for services.
- Knightly Orders. They could act similarly to mercenary groups in that they could be used by good DM organizations to conduct certain tasks in exchange for sponsorship.
DM-really-lite Factions:
These factions don't necessarily contribute anything to the server at large, but have common interests and have fun doing them. They don't get many perks because they don't do much to "earn" them.- Small cults that don't really have a supporting clergy elsewhere. They could secure their own areas and do their own thing without any real DM attention unless they were doing something interesting.
- People that have shared interests and just want a place to hang out and have poetry reading parties, or roleplay basket weaving, or don't like sitting in the market because they get wet. They can use their resources to get a place to hang out and they can do whatever it is without any real need for DM attention unless they do something interesting.
I think with this graduated approach you could provide established DM factions overall in charge of shaping and balancing the world to prevent things from swinging too far any direction. If Law, Crime, Good, or Evil got too powerful, the DM NPCs could make maneuvers to alter the balance. They could use their DM-Lite associated factions to help this and players could see how their actions shaped the world, even if it was just shifting back to "normal" Sometimes, the DMs could intentionally allow one side to get too far to create impetus for a larger swing back and after a few slightly smaller swings you reach equilibrium for awhile. This allows the DMs to give each of the ends (law, crime, good, evil) some "on top" time without breaking the entire world.
In all of it the DM Really Lite folks could just continue to do whatever they like to do without feeling left out or unappreciated. If they ever got to the point where they were contributing to the overall server's balance, they could potentially become DM-lite factions or even DM factions.
Another nice thing with the graduated approach is that sometimes a faction hits a run of bad IC or OOC bad luck where you lose key characters and they dissolve temporarily. Without some sort of NPC continuity, they may never overcome the inertia to get back going. If that small church with a few key players had that run of bad luck, but the church stayed with a NPC, it might make it much easier for a new group to jump in and pick back up where the previous group had taken it.
This also allows for players to find a group they fit into best for their time investment and play style. Some do well with more structure, others with less, but they can all be part of the "economy" of the world.