Dr. Quickfix, or How I Learnt to Stop Listening to Players
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tl;dr (Nah, I read the first bit and skimmed the thread)
There's some key points here.
Focus : Its "City of Arabel" in the name. In a structural sense, the titular city of the module is 4/500 some areas. Less then 1% of the module is devoted to the focal point of the server. Which seems incredibly messed up. And while I appreciate the effort that went into various new areas, there's a ton of prettymuch featureless wilderness zones and over-extended roadmaps these days. Even the newer towns seem to just be housing points to drop quests on (They don't have map pins, shops are copy-pasted, NPCs without even the basic commoner dialogue, inns that don't have signs or distinguishing markers).
Secondly, the storyline sense has expanded out into the "Hullack Kingdom". Of the three apparent main plots of the moment, we have Harts vs Legion in Eveningstar, Elves/Varlets/Darkthlore/etc in Easthaven, and whatever with the Rift Lyss in the Ancient ruins/Underdark. the slums are in the city as a fourth one, but nine years of coa history says the Slums are a black hole as plots/efforts go, so player trepidation to such is understandable.Introduction : It really is kind of lacking, especially with the major deviation away from the canon Arabel, and with lower playercounts, an actual new player could get turned off fast trying to comprehend what the heck is going on or who any of these people are before meeting a PC to explain it.
Features : While Coa boasts a fair amount of features, they aren't inherently obvious. Tons of newer stuff is only evident if you rigorously search the forums or wiki. There's also a fair amount of long running bugs that seem to never get addressed (Custom domains needing wanding jumps out as big one). Efforts going into v5 now sure, but v4 still is running for X months until then and creating an impression.
Factions & History : There's been a struggle since the Civil War to get factions moving, and it ties into the history aspect (along with the focus and BG's mention of "Arthurian fantasy", right now the factions are rather a mish-mash). To be blunt, writing a backstory (however interesting it may be, if most players ever even see it) then dropping a faction in more or less overnight is not a working formula except in a post-wipe environment. The Civil War worked because the factions were established, their were loyalties and interests developed and established for people to latch on to. The main players (PDs, the Nobles) were years old, and even the Phoenix Legion had had a slow build of power over 4 or months before reaching that point.
Exploratory Fatigue : Also a gripe I had with EfU back when I tried it. Everywhere is the same tileset and looks identical these days. Lighting is almost uniform (also at night is a ludicrous pitch black that just makes gamma settings get turned up. theres a moon and stars (and luminescent fungi and such) in the world). Its also a tileset that isn't very practical outside towns and roads, as its often very tough to navigate due to the lower visibility of its cliffs, and such things as the streams you can't cross/hop over. Another note in here should go to the climbing systems, which are both incredibly buggy, and generally start to simply cause frustration and impatience in areas where they're used as the singular method of getting around.
As the comment about seeing which way the Hart/Legion war goes before jumping in, I can say that in anyone I've talked to, and for myself, its that both sides are entirely unappealing to the wider array of people. The majority of people are not going to back an army of monsters that freely uses necromancy, and are also not going to hook up with a pretentious (not quite the word I want, and sounding more negative then I intend) bunch of paladin-wannabes detached from the common man and following codes that aren't practical for most. Both sides are a very tight niche, which doesn't spark a wide array of player interest.
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Also, stop looking for where the next reward will come from. Don't think 'If I do this, I might get this'. Just enjoy the game, enjoy what you're doing with your characters. Rewards are perks, never expect them and they will always be a nice suprise!
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I might rely on comparing us to EfU too much because I don't think we're that different at all. I think alot of what they've done is something we can learn from, we can take the good bits and mesh in with what makes CoA superior in our eyes.
Factions & History : There's been a struggle since the Civil War to get factions moving, and it ties into the history aspect (along with the focus and BG's mention of "Arthurian fantasy", right now the factions are rather a mish-mash). To be blunt, writing a backstory (however interesting it may be, if most players ever even see it) then dropping a faction in more or less overnight is not a working formula except in a post-wipe environment. The Civil War worked because the factions were established, their were loyalties and interests developed and established for people to latch on to. The main players (PDs, the Nobles) were years old, and even the Phoenix Legion had had a slow build of power over 4 or months before reaching that point.
I think this is key. Factions establish rapport with the players before diving head first into bloody conflict. It's about making them as important IC as they are OOC. The removal of the Noble Houses was a huge thing. The subsequent birth of these new factions and immediate plunge into hating eachother feel alot like conflict for the sake of conflict.
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Even with the Civil War I remember a lot of complaints of apathy being brought up on IRC, there were a significant number of people were on the fence in that conflict as well sadly. You have to give player's tangible things to fight for if you want them to take a side, I am not talking about loot. One of the things I did appreciate about EFU was it's willingness to occasionally shove the ramifications of what going on in the world into the average player's face whether they cared or not. Lets use the Civil War for an example, imagine if Bhaliir announced that if he wins all non humans will be expelled from the city. This immediately gives every player who is not playing a human character a reason to fight because now it directly effects them. Here's another example which isn't so dramatic, Joe the merchant used to be able to sell his goods in the market but this changes due to a growing tribe of lizardfolk in the region which has been raiding Thond caravan's in recent months and so in response he pressures Queen Lhal to institute a law that requires any merchant to buy an expensive permit in order to sell their wares. Joe has two options he can either buy the permit or operate underground which should he choose the latter and people like him could wind up generating a black market all on their own. Now say Deshurr isn't too happy about this new law and proclaims it is oppressing the common man and decides to fight it by organizing bands of adventurers to go out and kill lizardfolk which eventually causes the tribe to dwindle to the point where Thond's caravans can travel safely and the permit loses it validity. This kind of stuff is what is going to get people to care about getting involved and will provide so much more immersion than we have now because it provides opportunities for players to respond to things that impact them instead of a far away war between two powers.
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@Broken:
… it was so successful that more and more of the factions birthed from the fallout of the Civil War plot attempted to recreate this, constantly springing up to oppose the status quo and give players reasons to pit their characters against each other once more.
This. Factions popping out from nowhere and immediately being accepted/part of the server.
Plus someone should really take care of recording the server events somewhere so that the average player could know what is going on. (Pilgrims, Greencastle, Kreswell, Slime Cult, death of Tymora, Legion appearing, Grodd, Varlets… many things happened in a few months and if anyone - like me for instance - is not logged in 24/7 it is difficult to understand what is going on, I can imagine a new player...)
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As the comment about seeing which way the Hart/Legion war goes before jumping in, I can say that in anyone I've talked to, and for myself, its that both sides are entirely unappealing to the wider array of people. The majority of people are not going to back an army of monsters that freely uses necromancy, and are also not going to hook up with a pretentious (not quite the word I want, and sounding more negative then I intend) bunch of paladin-wannabes detached from the common man and following codes that aren't practical for most. Both sides are a very tight niche, which doesn't spark a wide array of player interest.
It is clear there is abit of teaching to do IC for RH. Codes are for the order not all the people of Eveningstar or any other land where Lahl rules. That is, even if RH is truely a niche (not using ambushes or bows and so on) that is not a given must for allies of Lahl.
That said I still cannot see how the conflict would not be important to all. Just as the conflict between Lyss and Tyche must be important to all.
Personally I think it is a more clearly defined good va evil conflict in the present CoA compared to a more Law vs Chaos angle in v3. Back then the complaint was always that no matter what you do, War Wizarrds won in the end. That cannot be said today when it clearly is player characters that have an impact on the outcome of events. So in the end, will your character prefer the rule of Kreswell, Lahl or Legion or maybe even Cormyr? Then your character can dive head first into making it happen.
P.S
At least one RH is not just wannabe paladin… :D
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The RH / Legion war would be more appealing, if its outcome would have an EFFECT upon the region. Yet it seems like two giants fighting a bit away from everyone else.
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A lot of great points here but I just want to comment on something briefly…
I don't enjoy themed factions. I don't like the "knight faction", the "necromancer faction", the "magic faction". I think it just polarizes everything and molds characters. I really enjoyed the way Arabel used to be, run by lords. Sure, each of them had a vague characteristic,
the "warrior (Deschurr)", the "schemer (Bhaliir)", etc, but it did not mold the characters so decidedly. There was room for plotting, intrigue, and the best part was that everyone was in the same city, a few minute's walk from each other. This forced different factions to find creative ways to disguise their plots and constantly vie for the loyalty of a portion of the adventuring populace. If I could have it my way, I'd ask for a peanut butter jelly sandwich, hold the MASSIVE crust (outlying areas).Now it's just...This is our land, that's their land, and to that direction is their land. Occasionally we'll go to their land and treat with them but that's about it.
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Now it's just…This is our land, that's their land, and to that direction is their land. Occasionally we'll go to their land and treat with them but that's about it.
How many times have I watched with despair as players sit in their faction HQ plotting such. Go out and do something Interesting! But, that is up to you, the players.
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@O'louth:
The RH / Legion war would be more appealing, if its outcome would have an EFFECT upon the region. Yet it seems like two giants fighting a bit away from everyone else.
I agree with this.
If the Legion and Red Hart were literally fighting over Arabel, and not just for Arabels favor, more people would pick sides and more things would move forward.
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Bring the war home and have both the RH and the Legion make clear declarations of what will happen if they win which will impact players no matter what so they will be more encouraged to take a side.
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Less discussing, more playing.
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Less discussing, more playing.
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Why? There's something a lot of players want to address.
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How do people feel about a Community Council consisting of both players and DMs? The council's job would be to provide a clear link of communication between both the playerbase and the DM team where issues like these could be brought up and addressed. It could possibly help and I'm curious as to what other people think.
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I whole-heartedly agree with Neo and B-Rocks here - Change in any form, wouldnt and I believe shouldnt come from discussion on the forums.
Many players wish for "the keys" to the world - so the may impact it, and shape it with their own will but at the same time turn with a pleading gaze to the team, waiting for them to do something.You want to see the Legion-RH gets furthered? Make a PC of one of these factions and oush towards that! You can even use your current PC to do that if it believes the same.
There is alot to do to further the conlict, and I know many players on these faction try to do so daily.I would like to also something to BG, lavish and Caek: You guys are amazing players, but I believe you forget something about movers and shakers - In RL these great shapers comes once or twice in a generation natuarally. Others are made and taught to be ones. Perhaps you guys should help with that? Take new players with potential and teach them, make them into movers and shakers.
There is always something to do as players. And that begins simply by logging in and playing a character you enjoy playing, as it is a game after all.
The rest? Will sort itself through.Happy and fun roleplaying to all.
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That said I still cannot see how the conflict would not be important to all. Just as the conflict between Lyss and Tyche must be important to all.
Might be important to characters if there was a war IG. or even conflict. Even pushin' and shovin'
It's piss-all to players because the only "war" is forum flyers.And Stooge, as far as being bold, engaging, interesting, letting DMs know, play a person not a class…
You can do all these things, yet, If, as a non-faction character, your plot involves factions, or perhaps NPCs... Then it doesn't matter.
Your arranged allies and minions wander away or die after waiitng for months...
Because factions are so stuck in the mud and dont do squat, even when their goals are handed to them on a silver platter, all they have to do is say "yes".
And you can wait forever for a NPC to respond to things.As BG? said, make it Arthurian again. Instead of factions being there as a focus point, simply let them be there to support the faction people.
Get rid of the political instability that mires everything in faction-worries, that will make it easier to make "plots" that dont depend on faction response/go-ahead. -
Non constructive.
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Never in this post have I bitched about what the server is but what the server can do. Systems, plot suggestions, setting tweaks, shit that the DMs can look at and thread into their plans for V5. I have looked subjectively on rival servers, the measures of their success and attempted to find points where a new player might find the others superior - including but not limited to; setting immersion, server features, emphasis and recognition for player characters, and DM activity times ect, ect.
I would like to also something to BG, lavish and Caek: You guys are amazing players, but I believe you forget something about movers and shakers - In RL these great shapers comes once or twice in a generation natuarally. Others are made and taught to be ones. Perhaps you guys should help with that? Take new players with potential and teach them, make them into movers and shakers.
I have no idea why you are throwing me in with Hinx and Caek; Infact, I wrote something that preaches to do exactly what you've just said.