High Level Quests and Doing It Hard Core
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Ways to change this?
Give a modest increase to high level quest XP, 100 to 150 or so a quest would make them more worth while.
(…)
Reduce the movement speed of the highest damage enemies so players can run away easier.
I like the movement speed tweak, but it will still happen that you get in an insta-kill crit. :/
Giving +150 XP for a high level would mean ten times more for the lower level participants.
Even for the high levels it would mean they level up faster, so the average level would go higher, and that isn't what we aim.
On the other hand, I argue that it would make dieing less painful, so it wouldn't make high level quests much more popular. -
I like the movement speed tweak, but it will still happen that you get in an insta-kill crit. :/
On this particular point only, it seems to me that insta-kill crits and save-or-die attacks are part and parcel of the higher level dungeons, I mean, after all, PCs get those too, no?
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If you get crited by a weapon master with a Scythe your going to die if you fumble on a death spell your going to die. kinda part of the game.
level loss is sad and your mad at the time it happens but honestly it really doesn't effect much.
would you rather have it the other way zero xp loss if you die and everyone 40 nay…that be boring and discourage players to do anything.
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I like the movement speed tweak, but it will still happen that you get in an insta-kill crit. :/
On this particular point only, it seems to me that insta-kill crits and save-or-die attacks are part and parcel of the higher level dungeons, I mean, after all, PCs get those too, no?
Well, most of the monsters are not supposed to have fun. :D
I don't like when I can do nothing against dieing, but it's usually not instant killing hits but lag what ruins my fun this way. ;) -
I like the movement speed tweak, but it will still happen that you get in an insta-kill crit. :/
On this particular point only, it seems to me that insta-kill crits and save-or-die attacks are part and parcel of the higher level dungeons, I mean, after all, PCs get those too, no?
To be fair, both of those mechanics are based on 13 encounters per level, even at high levels. It's understood that the NwN/CoA encounter amounts are way higher, making critical hits and especially death magic way more slanted against PCs than the original rules were balanced for. They (were?) are rarely used in CoA by NPCs, which balances it out a bit, but insta-death on encounters greatly skews the risk/reward balance on quests, in my opinion.
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This begs the question if items that granted immunity to critical hits is really 'too' powerful or not for CoA?
I tend to be leery of anything that gives outright immunity, but there may be a way to turn down the chances of critical hits. Death magic etc is easy to control. Dunno, just looking for ideas too from the community.
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I'm not sure. With all of the help pure class fighters have gotten do you think they are still get outclassed by fighter/rogues and fighter/rangers?
If so, this is a chance to give them another hand. Perhaps a fighter only item which gives crit immunity, but also decreases AC? Have it only drop on high level quest bosses.
"Cursed totem" or such. Crit immunity, -4 wil saves, -4 ac.
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You could add temporary crit immunity to a spell or items like a spell effect, making it useful but not as overpowering as being constantly immune due to an item.
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People aren't really being specific. What I'm getting is lots of "at high levels you gain XP more slowly, making death in general scarier". I don't see what we can do about that, any suggestions? Why is death at level 10 scarier than death at level 5? You lose the same proportion of XP. Is it because the recovery takes longer, since you don't gain XP as quickly after level 7?
Reaching level 5 is effortless. You really don't even need to try. Just tag along on a quest or two once in a while. If you die? So what, just continue to do what you're doing and you'll get there eventually. Alternatively, if you're actively trying to level up, you could reach level 5 with minimal effort in under a week (although it is possible to reach level 8 in a single day in a single reset).
Level 10 on the other hand, requires tremendous amounts of questing once you're above the 7-8ish threshold, and none of those quests are particularly easy. A slip eliminates days-weeks-months worth of xp.
People wouldn't be afraid of high level quests if they didn't have a major loss risk, but I don't see the problem with that. It's nice to see brave PCs and ones that pretend to be brave (although its more to do with the players really).
If you want to see more high level quests done, I suggest returning to the age old Risk vs. Reward truism. Yes, you can become fabulously wealthy doing high level quests exclusively, but there needs to be more to gain than gold. On CoA, gold can be used in plots, and for rare magic items for sale, but generally it's spent on the next step up for your equipment. Eventually you'll reach a point where you're about as optimized as you can be, and you're just buying supplies for the next quest or big plot. Make the rewards even more enticing for the high risk quests.
Introduce some new hedge magic drops on the toughest of the tough, or perhaps all new reagents that have even stronger/rarer properties. And while we can't very well start dropping +2 weapons on scripted quests, what's wrong with very powerful consumable items? I know of a quest that has a drop that has stoneskin/barkskin/deathward/etc charges. More things like that, but more options and more randomized. How about 3 use rings that cast Tensers Transformation, and so forth? This would raise the magic level a bit, but this wouldn't be a guaranteed drop, and it would only be on extremely high level high risk quests.
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You could add temporary crit immunity to a spell or items like a spell effect, making it useful but not as overpowering as being constantly immune due to an item.
i.e. potion of crit immunity?
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If that is possible, it seems like the best solution. Chug one during the boss fight and then you'll only die to overwhelming damage, not crits!
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On a side note, Pilgrims is a freakin' death trap.
I mean, c'mon. Packed with Secondary Damage: Death poisons and respawning + dispel + Death Gaze + paralysis baddies? Waaay too rough, without even counting the other three nasty evokations you generally take to the face doing it.
Proud owner of a 100% death record in this quest!
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On a side note, Pilgrims is a freakin' death trap.
I mean, c'mon. Packed with Secondary Damage: Death poisons and respawning + dispel + Death Gaze + paralysis baddies? Waaay too rough, without even counting the other three nasty evokations you generally take to the face doing it.
Proud owner of a 100% death record in this quest!
I was the first person to survive it!
Well, if by "survive" you allow for "Crawling along at glacial pace while carrying the two bodies of those I went with while praying my invis doesn't run out".
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I never saw the end room on this quest, I always died on the corner right before hand.
However, the old version of the quest got redone because it had some serious bugs. The new version is much more dea…survivable.
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Critical hits immunity is a big no!
Maybe in high level quest a mid way rest away where a group of adventurers who went in last has set up a bunker where the party can rest?
Or have areas where clever players can use to there advantage such as if players look around there area where we have say the high ground if we find it in time!
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Nothing in a scripted quest on CoA will hit you for more than 70 damage on a crit. If your health has dropped to a point where a crit can kill you, it's about time to start healing yourself, people!
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even on places that have no xp for death loss it takes years to get to 20 and 40 respectively because they put in old school constitution rules and xp tables
ie you can only die the number of times of your initial constitution vs a percentage roll of your current level each time - you make your roll you dont lose that death, you miss your roll you have one less in your bag of 12 lives or whatever it is ( most i have seen makes it simple and sets it at 10 times you can lose before your permadead)
crit death is a bitch but it happens, but having ways to fight it isnt an option because its called massive damage death rule even in the books
now death wards are in game, and other resistances that are applicable would be good to have as drops
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Death Wards aren't really easily acessable. Players never prepare them even when charging an undead general's castle.
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i do some of the quests, when i am invited of course, i recently did the one in the mage guild, i can only see my character doing that one once because the way it is presented and the way it ends (nice touch to the server by the way a neat quest like that with a unique twist ending)
i have done several of the 7+ recently, and more than i have ever done at any time previous in my gaming (i have been doing now at least one to possibly three of these quests per week, depending upon my time and the other players/characters), but i have also noticed, a moment of carelessness and a character is dead quite quickly, in many quests there are no margin for error
many of the quests do seem quite survivable, though sometimes i do a lot of quests over a short period of time, then do not quest for what will seem like a long time, this is because i use certain quests to build up supplies, when i have a acceptable amount where i think i can actually contribute on the quests, i will follow along on the more difficult ones, since i will not fight, it means i have better have something ready to contribute, which i really hope i have been doing (i guess if i had not done a decent job people would not invite me along) but since my character will not wield a weapon i make sure i do not take any of the items found, though i do take gold since that is what i use to replace the healing wands i spend in the quests
i had noticed though with some quests, with one group they are hard and i am out of wands and healing when i leave, whereas the same quest with a different group, i barely use my wands (healing ones) and have lots of my own healing left over, many times it is down to the group.
but it is important to note, i will not do a quest if i fall below a baseline of supplies, my character as i mentioned uses other easier quests to build up the supplies, then i will quest, though recently in game events made it so my character would not quest with certain people, so i did opt out of a few quests i normally would have gone on, mainly cause of character stubbornness
the other thing i have noticed is the reward versus risk ratio, as you get higher level, especially for "healing wand makers" it takes a lot more quests to make up for spent xp, and many times i will use up 600gp(or even more) worth of wands and get anywhere from 200 to 300 gold on the quests, what that means is i have to do some of the mundane quests to fill in the extra gold, as selling wands to make gold is not cost effective as far as xp is (i was finding myself not being able to make wands at first before i started to ration my wand making xp, i would be at zero usable xp, though i have easily rectified that situation now and have a very healthy surplus)
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Nothing in a scripted quest on CoA will hit you for more than 70 damage on a crit. If your health has dropped to a point where a crit can kill you, it's about time to start healing yourself, people!
Quite incorrect, I've seen it extremely rarely, but I've seen it:
@My:[Sun Sep 5 23:37:48] Improved Expertise : Kali Latori attacks Half-Fiend Warrior : miss : (9 - 2 = 7)
[Sun Sep 5 23:37:50] Half-Fiend Warrior attacks Kali Latori : miss : (8 + 24 = 32)
[Sun Sep 5 23:37:50] Sneak Attack : Garland attempts Improved Knockdown on Half-Fiend Warrior : miss : (6 + 11 = 17)
[Sun Sep 5 23:37:52] Half-Fiend Warrior attacks Kali Latori : critical hit : (20 + 19 = 39 : Threat Roll: 17 + 19 = 36)
[Sun Sep 5 23:37:52] Sneak Attack : Garland attacks Half-Fiend Warrior : miss : (3 + 10 = 13)
[Sun Sep 5 23:37:53] Half-Fiend Warrior damages Kali Latori: 71 (71 Physical)
[Sun Sep 5 23:37:53] Half-Fiend Warrior killed Kali LatoriI've also seen a half-orc bandit damage a CMB for 82hp in one crit, and a bresk castle guard kill fleabag in one 73 hp crit.