If you not in my "friends" group I don't care
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I think one line sums up the general spirit of CoA.
'Fortune favors the bold'
Hehe, precisely what is written on my arm! I love my CoA tattoo!
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More importantly, while they're not breaking the rules of CoA, they're breaking the spirit and I wouldn't mind seeing them quit.
If they're driving away new players and generally ruining the fun for others, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to ban them. Isn't one of the rules to be courteous and stuff?
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Yes, they are breaking the spirit, but unless they actually do something wrong; I see no point in banning them. Now, if they are powergaming/metagaming quests with a group of friends, thats one thing. But if they are just staying with them because they don't like the new guys or whatever reason, then they really aren't harming all that much. However, the guys that gave Argenta that advice need to atleast have some sense flogged into them.
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Saying outright how crap you think a lot of players are can have a bit of an alienating effect, and makes the server fairly unfun to begin with. It's probably best to keep a positive approach even when dealing with these sorts of people, or there's a danger of sinking to their level and making the server's atmosphere even less welcoming and fun.
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Yes, they are breaking the spirit, but unless they actually do something wrong; I see no point in banning them. Now, if they are powergaming/metagaming quests with a group of friends, thats one thing. But if they are just staying with them because they don't like the new guys or whatever reason, then they really aren't harming all that much. However, the guys that gave Argenta that advice need to atleast have some sense flogged into them.
But they are doing something wrong; they're alienating new players. And the community would be much better for it if these players simply left, you must admit. They are hurting something in that they alienate all the new guys, making things less fresh and exciting for our DMs and lingering playerbase.
If the rules don't already say to ban these sorts of players with the wrong attitude, then they should.
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So what if the small group of friends alienates the new guys? That allows everyone else, like myself, to gobble them up for my new faction! Which is great. I have a pretty good mix of veterans, and new guys, in my faction. Just because one person rejects them, doesn't mean we all do. Hell, I am actually glad those friends stick to themselves. Because in the process of doing so, allow me to meet new people, get new friends and faction members, and finally hear a fresh take on something.
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Yes, but that doesn't mean they aren't logging in for a few hours, finding a fair few people avoiding them outright due to their lack of grammatical accuracy or unconventional character type, and logging out after some knob explains that the server is a horrible wasteland of boringness to them.
They mightn't be on long enough for your faction to devour them, which is what I'm saying here. So, we should remove the sort of players who avoid them to enhance the hooking power of the server.
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IDK, maybe so. I just haven't really seen this "Friends" group. Thus far, I haven't found a group that rejects a person based on their newness. I have seen people rejected for IC reasons, IE religion/race, and I have seen people rejected for OOC reasons, IE powergamer/metagamer, but never for being new. I think I would agree with you more if I actually thought it was a problem at this point in time.
That being said, if there ever does come a point in time where there is a clear divide between a few "Veterans" and the rest of the server/new guys, then yes I agree some DM action should be taken. I think advising them to incorporate others or be faced with being shunned by the DM team would usually convince them to change their ways. I just feel banning is a bit harsh of a sentence compared to the crime.
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I think advising them to incorporate others or be faced with being shunned by the DM team would usually convince them to change their ways. I just feel banning is a bit harsh of a sentence compared to the crime.
@Mr.:
I've denied applications, stopped running plots, and entirely avoided the people who send me these Tells. Its a very good way to get yourself black listed by the DMs for just being a jerk with a bad attitude.
This is already in effect and it doesn't seem to be working, else there would be no issue. Thus, banning is the next logical step.
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We as players have no right to tell other players how to have fun on the server.
Do what you like to do and enjoy yourself it's a game,you WILL find others to have fun with.
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This is already in effect and it doesn't seem to be working, else there would be no issue. Thus, banning is the next logical step.
Not necessarily. You can simply delete their current characters, thus making them "new" again. Sure they might powergame back, then at that point I would ban them. You also getting two things mixed up, I think. Moloch's response was to Argenta's "advice", where-as I am talking purely about people who don't play with the new guys.
On a sort of separate note, I have unleashed a scourge upon the lands. About a week ago I introduced my 14 year-old brother to the server. He has never RPed. He has never played NWN. He plays hockey and smashes faces, not keys on a keyboard. That being said, he romped around the server doing the best he could and trying to figure out the purpose of RP. All the while, I was looking over now and then saying things like "Don't do that", "No, you can't attack him", "Yes, that is a good thing to say", etc. While watching I never once saw a person discriminate against him. Shun him. Or ignore him, despite the fact that quite honestly; he was sucking hardcore. In fact, he enjoyed it enough that he keeps wanting to play and get into the whole thing.
Now, the whole point of that little story was that while there are those Powergaming-Elitist folks out there, I haven't seen them affect a thing.
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@Amy:
We as players have no right to tell other players how to have fun on the server.
Do what you like to do and enjoy yourself it's a game,you WILL find others to have fun with.
In fairness, what Diagnosis was speaking of wasn't said by a player. People who like to quest a lot instead of plotting (the mindless powerlevelling drones), who hold those sort of jaded views and share them, are something unwelcome on the server, it's as simple as that. The question is what to do about them.
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Sadly, Its the main reason i stopped playing on this server.
((Argenta's post on this topic))What Argenta said there relates to this topic, I thought. The problem is not with players, it's with player experiences that promote these views (eg. don't charge into combat, don't go on so-and-so deathtrap quest). You can ban away all you like, but if one player has a bad encounter or five they're surely going to tell anyone they want to help start out on the server how to avoid the same unfun situations they've found themselves in.
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While not necessarily relevant to the ongoing debate, I thought this might help to give a bit of an idea of the right mindset for CoA. :)
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I don't think banning powerquesters, no matter how disgruntled they are, is the answer. I also don't see powerquesters turning away players that often, and I am always starting my characters at a point that no one knows the character is me. Do they sometimes send tells and go off on quests with 4 of them without inviting anyone else? Likely. However, whats the difference between them doing that and them not playing at all? Not much, and with them still playing there is always a chance that they can be converted, it has happened over and over in the history of the server. Lead by example. If they are assholes in return, give them a few months, and try again.
I know my views are not the most popular when it comes to this subject, even amongst the dms. But I know a lot of solid players who constantly get others involved that got to know the server in a similar powerquesting group, and eventually evolved into the players they are today, myself included. If those players were all banned, CoA would likely not exist as it does today.
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The problem isn't power-questers. I enjoy them actually, just because who else can I throw six Flesh Giants and a Bodak at, and actually get thanked when the fight is over?
What as DMs we do not want at all are the kind of people who tell Argenta the kind of stuff he was hearing, we're here to have fun with people and keep the game world fair–not to make it impossible to level or frustrating. That wouldn't even be fun for us.
We also don't like it when min-max'ed power-questers hit level 10 and all of a sudden want to start interacting with the people who focus on roleplaying and decide its time to start using their mechanical weight to PK, mug, or push them around.
If you want to play in the power-quest sandbox, then roleplay your character and quest away as an adventurer--but don't expect much in the way of DM plots (we focus on Adventure and Intrigue rather than level-tin) and don't push your power around on other players. Do expect we may have some issues if you're a power-quester and a poor roleplayer. Typically, we only discuss the issue though if the entire DM team feels it is a problem.
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Diagnosis: stomping around threads quoting the Player Resources forum isn't contributing to anything but the idea that there is one correct way to play and that one point of view is fit to judge if everyone whose ideas they haven't even talked about or looked into beyond a glance fits this idea. This is what the thread is partly about.
If you've ever made a fighter, for example: he fights alot. Come level 4, do you boost STR or CON? He "cultivated" both of them, so how do you choose? Most people, I dare say, know in advance which will be the main stat they boost and don't focus on that in the course of things. This makes everyone who ever knew they were going to make a STR-based fighter, a CHA-based sorcerer, a DEX-based rogue, a WIS-based cleric, stuck in the endless loop of the flow-chart (as an example). It's useful as a joke-like illustration of how to look at character creation.
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@H:
the idea that there is one correct way to play and that one point of view is fit to judge
@Mr.:
The DMs are the only real arbiters of what "legitimate" means.
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The DMs
With an S. Plural. We know there are DMs, besides. Pointing it out when people are discussing things only contributes to the "pet" mentality. Legitimacy here means what?
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What as DMs we do not want at all are the kind of people who tell Argenta the kind of stuff he was hearing, we're here to have fun with people and keep the game world fair–not to make it impossible to level or frustrating. That wouldn't even be fun for us.
What if the people are being honest, or at least, think they are being honest? In that case, they'd be actually looking out to make the best out of the server. I know it's a very, very distant possibility, but maybe there's real experiences that lead players to say these kinds of things.