Intrigue and Adventure VS CoA Sims
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Wait, are we talking about just DM events now? I've taken part in 3 or 4, and enjoyed them all. Sure, there was a reward of some XP, ranging from 25 XP to 1000 XP, and yes, they were fun. Heck, one of the more enjoyable was a quick and glorious death for the character.
The problem is, the DMs arent around 24/7, and when they are, their time is generally tied up with other things it seems, most of the time. The tools for "player initiated" adventure just isnt there. Few players are willing to risk a run into danger if there's not a DM present. (and oddly, when a DM is present, if there's a "garbage death" there's generally a DM raise, but player initiated events don't get such things.)
And Im just not going to discuss the "learn from mistakes" because, well, you can play NWN flawlessly and still die because of the RNG, especially when it's been skewered to be harder on the player.
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By CoA Sims we mean:
Dwarves wanting to make bricks to rebuild buildings.
I'm curious how players even expect CoA Sims to work? I doubt any DM wants to oversee people making bricks. None of us are looking to see another refugee center take hold.
I want to rebuild a ruined building.
Let's say its a temple of my faith, to accomplish its rebuilding I go out on adventures seeking a lost relic of my faith, the tomb of a hero to my faith, or I hunt down rumors of some mighty monstrosity my faith would seek to destroy as a symbol of its power. Then–when people are in awe of my adventuring, I tell them to reward me or honor me by rebuilding my temple. I'd battle against through sermons, conversion, duels, and perhaps ultimately an impressive final show down against a priest of a rival faith I'd do the same to have my temple built even if it wasn't yet.
Thought this may have nothing at all to do with a plot going on involving an idea of dwarves wanting to help rebuild the city it seems to be pretty close to the same lines of what I've been working on so I had to at least comment.
In some cases, the DMs may see the same information most of the playerbase does. This is a fluffy sims-style plot it's just a dwarf wanting to rebuild something. Underneith it though if you were able to witness some of the dialogue that isn't on the forums or available to most of the player base you might find the reason for this is to gain political stance and trade power as the influence of being surrounded by structures that support your race / class / religion help grant some level of push in the political realm.
Add to this a public face of good deeds and recognition of some of the more powerful people in the city to create a buffer for yourself should your not-so-good agenda become public. Who would ever expect the one responsible for a great amount of the reconstruction to be capable of this and that? Who would believe it?
Do you propose that we send our plot ideas to the dms to give them a heads up about what we're trying to accomplish so that you know that perhaps listening in won't be awaste of time?
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Do you propose that we send our plot ideas to the dms to give them a heads up about what we're trying to accomplish so that you know that perhaps listening in won't be awaste of time?
Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm here, but I believe they have stated it MANY times.
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@Foba:
Do you propose that we send our plot ideas to the dms to give them a heads up about what we're trying to accomplish so that you know that perhaps listening in won't be awaste of time?
Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm here, but I believe they have stated it MANY times.
I am aware they've stated as such before.
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By CoA Sims we mean:
Dwarves wanting to make bricks to rebuild buildings.
I'm curious how players even expect CoA Sims to work? I doubt any DM wants to oversee people making bricks. None of us are looking to see another refugee center take hold.
I want to rebuild a ruined building.
Let's say its a temple of my faith, to accomplish its rebuilding I go out on adventures seeking a lost relic of my faith, the tomb of a hero to my faith, or I hunt down rumors of some mighty monstrosity my faith would seek to destroy as a symbol of its power. Then–when people are in awe of my adventuring, I tell them to reward me or honor me by rebuilding my temple. I'd battle against through sermons, conversion, duels, and perhaps ultimately an impressive final show down against a priest of a rival faith I'd do the same to have my temple built even if it wasn't yet.
Thought this may have nothing at all to do with a plot going on involving an idea of dwarves wanting to help rebuild the city it seems to be pretty close to the same lines of what I've been working on so I had to at least comment.
In some cases, the DMs may see the same information most of the playerbase does. This is a fluffy sims-style plot it's just a dwarf wanting to rebuild something. Underneith it though if you were able to witness some of the dialogue that isn't on the forums or available to most of the player base you might find the reason for this is to gain political stance and trade power as the influence of being surrounded by structures that support your race / class / religion help grant some level of push in the political realm.
Add to this a public face of good deeds and recognition of some of the more powerful people in the city to create a buffer for yourself should your not-so-good agenda become public. Who would ever expect the one responsible for a great amount of the reconstruction to be capable of this and that? Who would believe it?
Do you propose that we send our plot ideas to the dms to give them a heads up about what we're trying to accomplish so that you know that perhaps listening in won't be awaste of time?
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think the point of this thread was to encourage players that are interested in things like political power or clout within the city to stop building temples, making bricks or refugee camps which aren't fun to oversee as a DM but instead to go out and make a name for themselves as heroic adventurers. Impress those same people your dwarf wishes to impress not by making bricks but by making them aware of your exploits, collecting trophies from rare and mighty beasts or defeating the threats to the city. Stuff like that that is actually fun to DM.
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I think the point is that if your goal is to gain "influence/political power" with those means, you may get you somewhere RL (though, frankly, I doubt it), but they won't get you anywhere in COA cause COA isn't about "political realism" it's about Intrique and Adventure.
"I want to gain influence so I will rebuild buildings in ways that glory my race" is not about ADVENTURE. Where is the adventure? Where is the DUNGEON or the DRAGON?
I suppose the DMs could make a "construction stone-hoarding dragon" with lots of uber-animal servants that harrass you as you mine for contruction stone in the wilderness, but a) that relies on DMs to be present to present any adventure and b) more importantly, it relies on the DMs to do all the heavy imagineering about the adventure involved in your plot.
Now, if your "gain influence by affecting the apperance of the city" involved, say, delving into the underdark searching for mithral or searching for lost dwarven relics in caves throughout the Stormhorns, and your "rebuild the ruined buildings" was how you "funded" those activities (ie. were just "your day job") that would be different.
The same goes, inter-allia, for building refugee centers, holding weddings, doing nothing but quests, ect.
I think it can be summed up as "COA isn't just for Role Playing, it's for Role Playing adventurers." When you forget that you bore the DMs and most other players outside your circle.
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So, if I understand this right, in order to get something like. . . Lamps in the slums, I'd need to organize a party to investigate something like glowing crystals in the Underdark or something?
A simple example; I'm utterly exausted. :( No sleep.
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No, it seems the idea is to not focus on trying to get lamps in the slums as it isn't something that is really going to create that much intrigue or adventure for you, the playerbase and the DM's to become involved in.
Realistically, who would actually try and oppose you from putting some lights up in the slums? Sharrans wanting to keep it dark? I doubt even Sharrans would really be that fussed by the lamps and petty vandalism lacks a certain epic quality so it isn't that exciting a story to participate in.
However, its clear that in this example the goals isn't necessarily to get lamps in the slums but a subgoal of the much larger task of improving the living quality of the people in the slums. To do this, you could impress the rich NPC's. Many NPC's have vast wealth far beyond the amounts capable of achieving even by most of the richest PC's. My advice in this instance would be a) to make the DM's OOCly aware that this is your goal, b) locate some pre-existing wealthy NPC's (The DM factions would be where I would look as you can get involved with the PC's first of all and impress them until they start mentioning you to their NPC, wealthy bosses, c) complete epic adventures that achieve the goals of those NPC's/factions in an effort to earn the financial backing that is required to improve certain aspects of the slums.
Then, of course, you've got the opposition to the improvement of the slums. Many characters will want to continue the status quo or even want to make it worse in the district. These characters would then, if they hear of your efforts, try to stop you and try to steal X relic that the NPC/faction wanted your group to retrieve, evolving the story into one of adventure and conflict that involves many players and is entertaining all around.
Hope that helps!
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Am I allowed to "lol"?
The DMs want adventure and intrigue, but also a genuine fear of death and it's harshness, and then wonder why people don't drag their characters they probably adore into the waiting maws of crippling, maiming, and death?
When I was actively DMing, I found that players of characters who wanted adventure and intrigue, but also harbored a realistic perception of death tended to feel the most rewarded. I was a lot more interested in helping out these sorts of players because I knew that the game (to them) was about telling a story through their character. They found and figured out exciting things to do, but understood if their character died or was effected deeply by the event, it wasn't personal. And as a result, I had more fun because they wouldn't send me PMs after the event with page long rants and complaints.
There's no reward without risk, afterall.
I just want to say that, in respsonse to this post, that death or fugue, becomes much less worrying, the more you get fugued.
You may realize, that after the 5th time or so your character is sent to the fugue (much like my main), and you respawn each time, you realize why you are really playing that character, in a game, that is meant to be fun and enjoyable.
Basically, the more one character gets knocked out and loses that xp, the more unattached you become, and the more willing you become to really be and play that character, and really enjoy the game (without that "bad taste" feeling that makes so many quit).
throws two cents in a fountain
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Ord and Aristos I appreciate the feedback on my post though I fail to grasp one thing. The dms say that players are encouraged to take part in the reconstruction of the city but yet the reconstruction isn't what you state we should be worried about. Instead we should be beheading giants and leaving the reconstruction to the npcs? That seems fine but I'm confused now more than before.
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Montigue, exactly what Moloch was saying, was that you should go do fun adventure related things, IN CONNECTION, with your rebuilding efforts.
Go identify the hidden Silvermist cave and slay the beast that has captured or killed your favorite Dwarven Brick maker from his forest brick making kiln and home.
I guarentee you, the DM's would be like "lol, ok" and you could build your building.
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But I also don't want to play a game where when I "win" I get 250 XP. If I lose, I get to trashbin 3000 XP. Its this thing called Risk Vs Reward, and well, if there's no reward, there's no good reason to take risks.
That's a bad way of looking at it. I would think that the experience and actually being part of a DM event is much more worth it, than the XP bonus or penalty you get. I mean we are all playing this game for the RP and entertainment right? Not just loot and levels right? Right…?
Im talking about non DM overseen events with that example, and players trying to initiate adventure.
I mean there's very little entertainment or RP involved in spending an hour arranging for a group to go somewhere, getting two screens out of Arabel Proper, and having a NPC Hill Giant/Ogre Chieftain show up and squash your party if you try and continue past it, or flee back to Arabel and go market sit instead.
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Ord and Aristos I appreciate the feedback on my post though I fail to grasp one thing. The dms say that players are encouraged to take part in the reconstruction of the city but yet the reconstruction isn't what you state we should be worried about. Instead we should be beheading giants and leaving the reconstruction to the npcs? That seems fine but I'm confused now more than before.
I think the term rebuilding has made a few people confused when they use it…What the DMs mean by "rebuilding" is NEW IDEAS. I'm sure you're thinking that whatever you're building is a "new idea" that helps in the growth of Arabel. However, like most people that want something built in honor of whoever/whatever you're jumping the gun. The thing you want built should be a medium to long term goal, way after you dwarf has:
- Gained recognition by other people (after you did your great dialog and posters)
- Ensnare people with your idea (Many people might not give a shit bout your idea. So instead use a smoke screen /aka intrigue/ and cater to whatever they would like to do into your own ideas.)
- Once you got a nice little following, let the DM's know what you got going on. Let them see you lure these people who really could give a fuck about your idea into some fun everyone would enjoy...like killing shit.
- Now after the DMs have taken notice, which you'll know by maybe NPCs or a DM will tell you directly. THEN you'll be in place to build whatever the hell you want, because people will know you're legit, and not some random brick building loony.
Im talking about non DM overseen events with that example, and players trying to initiate adventure.
I mean there's very little entertainment or RP involved in spending an hour arranging for a group to go somewhere, getting two screens out of Arabel Proper, and having a NPC Hill Giant/Ogre Chieftain show up and squash your party if you try and continue past it, or flee back to Arabel and go market sit instead.
Ha…that's life though...Don't let it stop ya. I mean everything can be avoided with good preparation though... Scouts...Trackers...I mean there is always options to prevent these things...
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Any tips on how we can show that we care without doing such mundane things as raising food and clothes, and have intrigue and adventure, while at the same tame being essentially non violent….would be appreciated.
Cheers.
Go out as Ilmateri and find some terrible beast, some great lost treasure–and then use that for charity. There are 9,000 (well were) people in the slums, just throwing gold and clothes at them wasn't going to make a difference for a number of reasons.
But a lot of the reason honestly is that "sims" approach. No DM was going to have helping the slums being as simple as raising 3,000,000 gold coins which is enough to provide everyone in the slums with a house, clothes, and tools for a job (and cause massive inflation).
The Ilmateri could have driven the gangs and criminals out of the area (from the Three Bars and later Broken Bottle) to discovering who funded the gangs in the city and driving them out (it was Bhaliir for 7 years and no one ever tried to figure that out).
The Ilmateri could seek out lost holy relics of Ilmater (whether they exist or not hardly should matter--making a big deal about looking for them and including lots of people in the search or effort to make them stay hidden is great). Just let a DM know your PC is working on finding Caria's Sacred Pantsuit and that its just going to be a focus for your group even if you never ever find it (imagine Holy Grail type quests).
Confront and battle terrible monsters and enemies that Ilmater would oppose. Discover that defeating these, and giving some of the rewards to charity is far more valuable than just raising money for food and clothing drives. If you defeated the Ashby, or wiped out Clar Banda, or slew an evil dragon and great risk and incredible cost (facing and risking permadeath) then the slums very well may make a remarkable recovery.
Yes, I just told you to add ADVENTURE and INTRIGUE. CoA Sims just doesn't work. We've hinted this for a long time, but I felt it is good to finally just say it and explain what does to help give people direction.
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Do you propose that we send our plot ideas to the dms to give them a heads up about what we're trying to accomplish so that you know that perhaps listening in won't be awaste of time?
Sending in plot ideas is always great.
My point in part is, you can't make bricks and use them to build a building or a gate in NWN or CoA. We're not set up for it.
If the dwarves want to build a wall or make bricks, they should go out on an ADVENTURE and gain massive wealth fighting some horrible and very dangerous beasties. They should INTRIGUE against enemies and manipulate their way to prestige and authority with NPCs who will send workers to build the wall or make bricks.
DMs don't make bricks unless you give us the mortar of ADVENTURE and INTRIGUE.
I realize many people want to help "rebuild" Arabel, but rebuilding Arabel is not a case of the Sims. It is linked directly to your ability to provide awesome ADVENTURE and INTRIGUE.
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Personally, I think a group of Dwarves rebuilding the city for political reasons is a good idea, and could very well fit into what I think is moloch's original point. Standing around building buildings is no fun, true; but going to get that special rock that's close to a certain superpowered undead thing near thunderholme because the pride's new owner has to have a statue cut from that is adventure. Hell, going to the helmlands for rocks could constitute adventure and you don't even need a dm.
My point is, even if your goals are CoA Sims, there's plenty of ways to achieve them through CoA adventure.
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@Alieana:
So, if I understand this right, in order to get something like. . . Lamps in the slums, I'd need to organize a party to investigate something like glowing crystals in the Underdark or something?
A simple example; I'm utterly exausted. :( No sleep.
Perhaps, or slaughter a dragon for a local noble and discover he has the money to put up lamps as your reward.
Wipe out the gangs in the slums and discover that the lamps don't get broken anymore.
Kill Clar Banda and discover she was hording lamps all these years for no reason.
Locate the lost Cornucopia and trade it for a lamp.
The thing is; we prefer you don't just buy lamps but do something adventurous that the DMs can turn into lamps later. Something that takes some time and effort and risk because if you want to influence the module in a lasting way–you need to take a risk.
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- Gained recognition by other people (after you did your great dialog and posters)
- Ensnare people with your idea (Many people might not give a shit bout your idea. So instead use a smoke screen /aka intrigue/ and cater to whatever they would like to do into your own ideas.)
- Once you got a nice little following, let the DM's know what you got going on. Let them see you lure these people who really could give a fuck about your idea into some fun everyone would enjoy…like killing shit.
- Now after the DMs have taken notice, which you'll know by maybe NPCs or a DM will tell you directly. THEN you'll be in place to build whatever the hell you want, because people will know you're legit, and not some random brick building loony.
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mmm…
got it.
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Any tips on how we can show that we care without doing such mundane things as raising food and clothes, and have intrigue and adventure, while at the same tame being essentially non violent….would be appreciated.
Cheers.
Go out as Ilmateri and find some terrible beast, some great lost treasure–and then use that for charity. There are 9,000 (well were) people in the slums, just throwing gold and clothes at them wasn't going to make a difference for a number of reasons.
But a lot of the reason honestly is that "sims" approach. No DM was going to have helping the slums being as simple as raising 3,000,000 gold coins which is enough to provide everyone in the slums with a house, clothes, and tools for a job (and cause massive inflation).
The Ilmateri could have driven the gangs and criminals out of the area (from the Three Bars and later Broken Bottle) to discovering who funded the gangs in the city and driving them out (it was Bhaliir for 7 years and no one ever tried to figure that out).
The Ilmateri could seek out lost holy relics of Ilmater (whether they exist or not hardly should matter--making a big deal about looking for them and including lots of people in the search or effort to make them stay hidden is great). Just let a DM know your PC is working on finding Caria's Sacred Pantsuit and that its just going to be a focus for your group even if you never ever find it (imagine Holy Grail type quests).
Confront and battle terrible monsters and enemies that Ilmater would oppose. Discover that defeating these, and giving some of the rewards to charity is far more valuable than just raising money for food and clothing drives. If you defeated the Ashby, or wiped out Clar Banda, or slew an evil dragon and great risk and incredible cost (facing and risking permadeath) then the slums very well may make a remarkable recovery.
Yes, I just told you to add ADVENTURE and INTRIGUE. CoA Sims just doesn't work. We've hinted this for a long time, but I felt it is good to finally just say it and explain what does to help give people direction.
These are concrete examples that are easily understood.
Thanks muchly!