Alternative to removal of max hit points
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Not making a poll yet as various other ideas might come up.
But, if the team do somehow decide not to go the route of removing max hitpoints (which is weird as it -seemed- like the community was for that a short time ago) then let's think up some other options.
The most prominent one I took from the rapidly heating possible super nova hit points poll was:
Less consumables.
I have a few issues with how we would do this -
Often people say "this quest isn't rewarding enough, how about adding more potions to it?"
So… we add more potions.
But if we're reducing the consumables, then what will quests reward? We can't just give out +6 full plates as those are permanent items, and once you've grabbed one, you got one, no need for another, it's forever, which is why consumables are a useful reward.
If we give gold in place of (many of the) consumable rewards, then we are just giving you consumables, but with a trip to the shop involved, which brings me to-
What do we do with the shops? Do all the prices need to doulbe? Triple? do we just remove a bunch of potions from shops entirely? If so, which ones?
And what about cool thematic "consumable" items, like a helm that has dispel uses or neg ray or whatever, or just the eye of a beholder giving you X uses of Y spell?
How would we actually implement less consumables without making it suck to do anything?
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Its easy to metagame a quest and just go to any potion store and buy whatever buff/counter potion you need, because they are ALL available.
Maybe just have circle 1-3 potions that can be bought and the rest are DM given, or dropped on quests. Stock barkskin, shield and lesser restore and tackle those goblins and hope for the best! If a wizard, cleric or bard is with you, it makes them more valuable.
Makes the polarization, heal, accuracy, haste and stoneskin potions more valuable and less available to be stocked up on.
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If you need to do something, just remove that MAX HP, really. It won't hurt that much.
No matter how much HP I get, I'll still die to crits and lag and everything that used to kill me.It also saves DM time not asking the questions you asked here, which is something the whole community values a lot.
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Remove heal potions from stores.
Having them be much rarer counters the '2 rounds of damage from 3 people is countered by a heal potion' argument.
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To put some more info into this.
There is a bit of an issue with characters reaching level 9-10 REALLY quickly. Literally in a few days. This doesn't give characters much chance to develop a storyline before they become high level, when, technically, and traditionally, they would be nearing retirement.
This means it's not the players fault they are high level and haven't done all that much, and starts to run counter to the below post
Your already close to hitting the super big levels, and you haven't been around that long.
Now, I'm not saying this happens to all characters, I'm not saying it's always this extreme.
What I am saying, is that the time it is taking to reach these levels has decreased significantly from the servers design, and roleplaying guidelines.
We talked to the community recently about this, much of which didn't happen in the forums, a lot was in IRC over several days/weeks.
We talked about the idea of steepening the XP curve, but at that time the community seemed to believe that max hit points had been the largest contributer to the situation.
We took some time to look into this, and come up with a solution that would not annoy people with RNG rolls for hit points (the original reason for implementing max hit points) while still lowering the overall hit point pool to some degree.
By the time we posted the ideas for the community to finalise, opinions had seemingly changed.
So here we are, looking for alternatives.
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From what I can tell, the availability of high end healing is what really throws off the balance. Heal potions should be very rare or even dm loot, cure crits maybe should be a potion that is supplied exclusively by pcs, and csw potions should remain about where they are at now, maybe with a very very slight decrease in drop rates, and a slight 2-3 gold increase in price universally.
The rest of the potions are either staples, or more reactionary potions, which means they aren't necessarily applicable towards every situation but often solve problems at hand all on their own. I don't think it's fair to make them so unavailable they cannot be reliably obtained to combat the threats that take those consumeables to beat.
The ability to heal yourself should never be reduced to the point where it is a luxury, but as it stands I find myself often with way more healing than I think is alright, and that should probably change.
So yes, we can keep rewarding pcs by giving them consumables, but deciding what, where, and when to give them needs to be considered. Instead of a stack of healing potions, a smattering of other, more varied potions or items with charges might be better.
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I think that an important thing here is to try and make people aware of what the exact problem is currently as I am not sure it is to apparant, first of all it doesnt stem soley from there being max HP at the moment, but rather the fact that Arabel is designed in truth to be a server inwhich the average lvl's are 6-8 which currently can be reached without issue in a couple of days. Now what we find is that the average lvl of the server is 10+.
There are numerous reasons why this is happening, Max HP making characters far more survivable to nigh on unkillable past lvl 10/11, High lvl consumables being easy to aquire (In a week or so, just from quest drops, perhaps a spice or two, I have been able to aquire 6 heal potions which is far to much), With the high lvl consumables being easily aquirable it makes it far easier to not die. I am sure there are other factors but these are the major ones that come to mind currently.
Scaling HP will remove the the major problem that was with the dice rolls, which was the random factor screwing over characters. The reason as best that I am aware that people did infact vote for max HP (As scaling wasnt avialable at the time). I fully understand that people do not want to lose what they percieve as only a few hp per lvl, however these few HP are what make the difference between a crit killing them or not and while we all dislike deaths such as these it is a contribution to characters getting to those higher lvls, thus disbalancing the server.
Scaling HP may not ultimatly fix the problems, however it is a step in fixing something that is currently an issue. It is the easiest step to take for the DM's I believe in reducing the average lvls (Rather than having to Buff every single quest or change every single loot table)
Reducing the drops of high end consumables and increasing the cost of them to craft and purchase from NPC's, the amount of consumables as I wrote above is high and to the extent that people are walking around with stacks of 20-40 heal potions. When a character has this much inturn with not being able to be burst down to death with either spells or crits it leaves really the only option of high DC death/hold spells to actually be able to kill them in pve/spice/events/pvp. Even high lvl rogues will have 90+ HP which is enough to survive most things.
The reduction of XP past a certain lvl. This would most likley involve removing XP from random mobs around the server and quests mobs, instead leaving only DM xp/Quest end XP/ handing in bounty XP to level up characters after they reach a specific level, probably what is desire as the high end of the desired average level (9+ perhaps?).
This is a problem at the moment and it has been for a long time, I would say for at least 6-7 months that the server has become vastly imbalanced and overleveled. The DM's see this and they are trying to find a way to fix the issue, it is not an attempt to spoil anyones fun nor is it really an attempt to get enjoyment from seeing characters die. They just wish to get the level range back to something that is more manageable I believe.
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If the problem is too fast leveling, Introduce a stiffer exp curve. Dont weaken the characters so "they will die more". That I think, is what bugs people the most, not that there needs to be changes, but that those changes are suggested as "if you die more, you lvl less quickly". Dying sucks. Slow leveling not half as much.
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Make AC levels lower. Make it that 'OH SHIT THAT HITS HARD' and then chugs that precious barkskin, shield or blur potion, instead of starting out just buffing up and running into the fray without much thought.
Make that fighter who wears full plate and a shield ACTUALLY tank without always having to resort to potions, using the feats he invested in.
Change the potion costs, make them harder to find. Don't make crafting them suck, but just make then harder to craft unless you specialize in it.
Nerfs all around.
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Make AC levels lower. Make it that 'OH SHIT THAT HITS HARD' and then chugs that precious barkskin, shield or blur potion, instead of starting out just buffing up and running into the fray without much thought.
Make that fighter who wears full plate and a shield ACTUALLY tank without always having to resort to potions, using the feats he invested in.
Change the potion costs, make them harder to find. Don't make crafting them suck, but just make then harder to craft unless you specialize in it.
Nerfs all around.
The problem with this is that it would require a complete rebalance of the entire server.
There are ways we can figure this out without completely redefining the meta. I've said how I think we can do it [the semi-removal of the very high level consumables, specifically healing] and the implementation of more offensive consumables into the loot tables, such as aid and divine favor so basic examples.
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I don't want to write a long post, and I don't want to justify my opinions. I have no intention of changing minds, but I have a lot of insight that has to do with the server history and former DM's making certain changes. I disagree with the goal of certain DM's to make "more deadly", but I think my proposals would do it all the same. Yes, I do think it's a huge deal of work, but I think Max HP is a completely unrelated matter. To nerf HP in order to make quests harder would be like having a kitchen that's messy and needs to be cleaned, but instead of just doing the work, you go to the grocery store for 3 hours and buy cleaning supplies, then come home and go to bed exhausted from all your hard work. The goddamn kitchen is still a mess.
1. NPCs as a whole, have absolutely way too much HP and Saves.
2. Players have access to too much AC through self sufficient means.I would suggest bringing NPC's more down to earth and less godlike, while maintaining their deadliness. Even run of the mill enemies, like the Swamp Barbarians have what seems like 350 HP plus healing potions and are hard to hit (despite wearing leather armor). They also have spell resistance. The only way to defeat them is meleeing them to death.
If you remove the accessibility of consumables and reduce the tanky qualities of NPCs, non-warrior classes become just as vital to quests as wizards and you also open up options on how to approach quests.
A. Wizards can prepare crowd control spells so the fighters fight with more safety,
B. Wizards can nuke down key NPCs or mobs.
C. Wizards can buff fighters to fight more safely and deadly.
D. A rogue sneak attack is more deadly.
E. Combat encounters are much faster. PC's will die faster and so will NPC's. -
Every role should have a position of importance in combat. Consumables should be important, and treated as important. They shouldn't be removed, but should be much more difficult to obtain. Enough so that people second guess drinking a shield potion against a typical encounter.
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I stopped playing alittle while ago for a few reasons really.
One of the issues i have with the server currently is that it feels badly written in it's narrative.
To explain alittle there when you read a good book the heroes never have everything they need to win every encounter,but on CoA that is exactly what they now have.
It's not just the heal pots it the high level potions you can just buy from a shop,stone skin level 12 bark skins,a counter to every single spell or attack type in the game all for sale at your local supermarket.
Then there is the dispel items that litter the server in huge numbers back when it was average level 8 if you wanted to dispel someone you needed a caster or a dammed expensive wand.
Bloodstones a stolen idea from some books by David Gemmel that didn't get implemented properly and the DM left,they should be completely removed.
Gold…...Well you need the gold to buy the supplies but when you can buy 10 pots of every type and several weight reduction bags to carry them all and still have 10k left over then just maybe the rewards are to high.You could get all this in a week or two just playing a couple of hours a night.
The result from the DM side is to escalate every encounter last minor DM event i did(a few months ago now) was a big battle i used probably 10-15k in potions to survive it,but this was a minor skirmish not an end game,so really it's circular players need more stuff because DM events get harder then DM events get harder because players have more.
So remove all the super buffs from the shops lower the gold rewards by 10% players will soon start to level slower when they can't just breeze through everything with almost no regard to supplies.
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We already give free XP to players to help them get to level 6. If the intention is to keep the average level around 6-8, then an extremely stiff XP nerf at level 6 or 7 would essentially help keep things around that level. I think the problem is we are planning the server around people dying more instead of planning the server around it being harder to get there in the first place. I agree with scaling HP as it should still be possible for a good, well planned group to take out a high level character. Also, maybe making the best potions harder to come by would be great. Maybe make serious healing and lower easy to come by but crit healing and above extremely rare. Maybe have some kind of event where supplies for NPC potion brewers become rare, causing them to jack up their prices on things like barkskin, shield, etc… making potion brewers and buffing clerics/mages/druids extremely more valuable to the server. I mean... there is already super hate for druids... maybe make it so the cobbled circle says "deuces we're out" and barkskin becomes nigh impossible to find in the city limits entirely. This also has the plus side of making wand/potion making much more profitable because they can raise their own prices some too.
TL/DR personal opinion to fix the issue
-Scaling HP
-Harsh XP nerf after level 6 or 7
-Remove barkskin from city based shops and jack up price for all other buffing potions
-Remove the availability of Critical Cure and Heal potion -
Kind of with golw on this: npc's cheat like fuck and the 'meta' is a result /of/ that which itself is a response to players getting more skilled at the game to counter uber dangerous threats which- thus goes the cycle.
Something I think would really help to rebalance things without forcing the team to make huge time sinks would be to allow the player base to take over a substantial chunk of the consumable market. Once/if vendor stalls are available to players, they can sell their goods even when they're offline. This allows them to sell consumables and even develop cabals and monopolies on the prices they charge but it helps foster a player economy that doesn't really exist right now, and makes consumables less expensive (conceptually) while being harder to obtain as well and putting a soft cap on the KINDS of consumables people can get access to, you could just as easily add 'alterations' to potion recipes (found via experimentation) for unusual potions.
Obviously you'd want to graduate this kind of thing in to ensure people get into the mindset, and the potential for 'potion mules' as alts to rise and get rich is there. You also pretty much FORCE casters to prep buffs for a party instead of exploring their own brand of spell-slinging. You also create a dangerous problem in that if the entire economy is player driven and no one wants to play 'potion bitch', then the entire thing falls apart. . . .so, not fool proof by any means.
But it's just an idea. I think there's potential for RP and stuff that could be generated from it, but there are just as many ways it could be used and abused. Like anything, really.
I sincerely doubt that there's one silver bullet to this that's going to satisfy everyone, but a few minor tweaks might help.
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CoA has traditionally tottered between being Actiony and Very Actiony. The past year or so, I have seen evidence that the server is increasingly Very Actiony, and that level continually increases.
1. DMs are spicing quests, possibly in an effort to reduce the number of high level PCs. But this is also rewarding players for having good builds and being tanky.
2. Many DM events are highly combat oriented. Thayan Arena immediately coming to mind. This results in more and more players playing high powered melee characters.
3. When was the last time you saw a persuasion or intimidate or persuade check in game? No, what you have is brief convo, then FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!
4. Log in, run a quest with the entire server. How many PCs are support characters and how many are frontline tanks? Archery has gone down the drain. Wizards are exclusively buffers. Clerics are battle clerics, and majority of PCs are heavy melee combat PCs, which is reflecting the style and narrative of the server. Traditionally in CoA, the more warriors types are available, the better the leveling and the XP.In short, Players are being rewarded for being High Powered Super Melee Combatants, which are more survivable, have access to the widest ranges of gear and drops, can participate in all events and quests. NPCs and Mobs are increasingly High AC, High HP, High AB, High Saves, requiring them to be melee-ed to death by 6-10 PCs simultaneously. There is also a wide and open disparagement of people who find themselves unable to "survive" consequently, people either leave, or they get more tanky.
In short, the server has been encouraging and even demanding that players create certain types of characters, deliberately or indeliberately.
Why are we surprised when almost everyone plays those sorts of characters? -
3. When was the last time you saw a persuasion or intimidate or persuade check in game? No, what you have is brief convo, then FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!
Sadly these cannot be enforced without DM oversight. I'd love for players to work it out between themselves and do this, but a lot of times that doesnt happen.
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@O'louth:
If the problem is too fast leveling, Introduce a stiffer exp curve. Dont weaken the characters so "they will die more". That I think, is what bugs people the most, not that there needs to be changes, but that those changes are suggested as "if you die more, you lvl less quickly". Dying sucks. Slow leveling not half as much.
Slower leveling is FAR preferable to maintaining level through character death.
If the problem is "people level to fast" the solution is not "Take away their shiny toys" and the solution is not "Just kill them more so they have to relevel more". The solution is, "Give them less XP to slow down the process."
Less HP, less consumables, less healing… all can be accounted for by shifting build tactics, feats chosen, etc. But no matter everything else... you cannot level without XP. So if people level to fast, they do it by getting XP to fast. And if they get XP to fast, give them less.
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I hate slow leveling. it just means people will take less risks. Rachet up the lethality. Max hp is a terrible mechanic because the server isn't designed around that. But no one likes having terrible hitdice rolls either due to randomness. So a rather effective compromise has been made.
I recall my level 9 cleric couldn't defeat a fighter in a combat in which he was paralyzed for over 14 rounds because that fighter had 160 health. Since when is that a reasonable thing? We have 2 handed weapon characters and characters with 10 or 12 constitution tanking instances incredibly well with no real investment towards their survival.
I'd prefer seeing things become less lethal and numbers not being inflated, which requires the players have less tools. If this keeps up, i'll just roll a bear monk or pull out a well built fighter as my next concept and prove how stupid full hit dice is. Thifur Thunderhammer reached level 13 for a reason, and it was because I built him as a cleric with heath in mind.
I figure if that happens, the enemies will just get nastier to compensate until the DM scaling is out of whack.
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To be fair, those with 10 or 12 con likely put their points somewhere else. And for one who has done just that, it is nice to be able to at least partly contribute.