EiG Stuff
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Ill be more specific then Zool. I get that just because I bring people on a scouting mission I have created, that they dont all get a knightly title, and that the event and direct rewards there of, should be its own rewards. But in regards to DM plot lines, I love being part of them. But until now, I have seen, for example if a superior or a retainer was having the OOC scheduling with the dm for the events, as them doing a bit of leg work for all of us. We meet, we discuss plans, and then one of us contacts the dm. That is how 95% of the things I have participated have been. The Caravan / Orc ordeal, was the work of many people in the planning, just as it was in the execution of it. But if it is only the person who contacts the dm who is rewarded with progress, then either said person wont have anyone there to assist them, or even worse for the dm team, you will have 20 people trying to be the one who sets the time and date for the event.
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I see it like this. The more effort you put into something, the more you get from it. I haven't been playing on CoA very long, haven't really accomplished much(except make some friends/associates), and have been involved in some DM events, just tagging along really. I don't expect to earn anything, but have fun and enjoy being a part of a group that's accomplishing something. That itself is a reward. Eventually I want to create some events, involve players, and put forth effort in order to earn something, even if it isn't what I set out to get. Even playing a subordinate, you can do cool stuff and have direction, and build upon, that I believe.
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You also get 0 (zero) rewards for setting a time and date for an event.
You would have to have created a build up to it, been proactive in engaging people in the plotline, set up events related to it.
Telling a DM what time people can be there does nothing to earn you "cool stuff"
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I see it like this. The more effort you put into something, the more you get from it. I haven't been playing on CoA very long, haven't really accomplished much(except make some friends/associates), and have been involved in some DM events, just tagging along really. I don't expect to earn anything, but have fun and enjoy being a part of a group that's accomplishing something. That itself is a reward. Eventually I want to create some events, involve players, and put forth effort in order to earn something, even if it isn't what I set out to get. Even playing a subordinate, you can do cool stuff and have direction, and build upon, that I believe.
Yes, 100% correct.
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I would say that the most important thing to keep in mind is that if we have to tell you what to do to reach the high level tiers (PDK, Knight, War Wizard, Captain) then you're not there yet. These roles (and perks of that stature in general) are given out to people the DMs know we can dump stuff on and expect it to be turned into a plot for many other people.
Asking for guidance is fine, but it'll never be a case of "this is what you need to do to become a Militia Captain" because that defeats the point of it.
Yes it's a challenge to do that, no one manages it with every character they play, it can be frustrating, but this is part of what "winning CoA" is about. It ain't easy! And it's as much about figuring out what OOCly appeals to other players as it is everything else.
There are other aspects to it like actually meeting the requirements of course (e.g. martial weapons for WWs, doing militia work for Captain) and these might be laid out as a checkbox exercise to fast-track people if they're already meeting the more important requirement stated above.
You just wont get promoted for being at an event.
Also this. Your Road Captain lead the defense of Eveningstar but isn't getting knighted?! Did you actually do more than turn up on the day as the only PD guy and act like you were in command? These sorts of things might get you into the lower ranks, but you're not going to become a Councillor like this.
And someone mentioned interim ranks. We do give out perks and stuff to people we feel are on the right track to try and encourage them to keep going. It's not a case of you're either a Captain or a Warden, and these perks tend to be more substantial than a job title.
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Lizard, dont get me wrong, since I have reached those peaks in the past. I know "how" its done. Some of it is damn hard work, alot of activity, some of it is taking risks, being creative in your approach, and some of it is pure luck, being a Orc hunting ranger when an Orc plot appears, or being a sharran monk when the Shadovar are coming.
However, and I reckon these my points if any:
1: Not all can be the leader, but a leader also needs motivated followers. And if only the most visible leaders are given visible perks, then no one wants to be the follower. People move towards the light, towards rewards. If rewards are only given to leaders, everyone will try to be the leader.
2: Every character has a lifespan, with a curve. If the rewards / compliments are only given towards the END of the characters lifespan, then they become pointless. If Khazark equals retirement, no one will try to achieve it. Id rather see a dozen knights, than I want to see burned out players with otherwise brilliant concepts. Unless Knight titles are meant as an end game in the eyes of dms, and not as a ticket for future plots. -
Yes, and the above is exactly why we have tiered ranks.
For the guys not interested in the effort needed to reach the very pinnacle, there's no reason to ever progress beyond Private, Road Captain, or whatever. These are rewards. And if these guys never seek to become plot-churning factories they still get other perks if they do cool stuff. You can comfortable reach Sergeant, Road Captain, Scout etc. by being a "follower".
Advancement through the ranks has almost nothing to do with time. What takes longer for some may not take so long for others. That said we're not going to make someone a Khazark or a Warden after a week - partly because these roles require a fair bit of planning from the DM end because they are meant to be powerful and influential and not just be "here's some more loot, go back to doing what you were".
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Councillor positions are end game, knight isn't, but it is a high rank.
Getting a councillor position probably means your character will become an NPC once you retire them. Like Kresswell became an NPC after basically taking over the entire city, and Novo Mundus became an NPC after becoming (essentially) the leader of the adventurers guild. Once you reach councillor, you should probably have either completed all your character goals (retirement makes sense) or have a few things left to do, which you should be able to achieve pretty easily from that position (retirement is near)
Again… I will try to explain.
It is NOT ONLY the "most visible leaders" who are given visible perks.
Minions can enjoy them too, see my example of a minion who gained a shrine to his god, and raised an "avatar" of said god, while clearly being a minion.
It is the characters that create fun and rewarding situations for other character that gain the best perks.
I get the feeling what some may be asking for from this thread is for the team to say that you can get promoted for being the guy at the front of an orc assault, or gain a PRC by being entirely reactive. Not going to happen.
Not entirely sure how much further it can be explained.
People get rewarded with loot and events if they are reactive, if they are proactive, they are much more likely to get things like promotions and sponsorship and PRCs.
Create events->Get large rewards
Run things created by others->Get medium rewards
Go on events->get some loot/XP -
To use an example from v4, Terenshan was involved in a plot regarding a dragon, Eveningstar, the Red Hart, and more. He had been in part of an arc that helped to bring a dragonbane weapon into the hands of the Red Hart, and there was a second that was gathered from elsewhere, but he didn't like the odds.
Reacting, would have been asking people to show up to help with the overwhelming fight. He did that.
Proactive, was remembering that in the mod, in a public place, that no one seemed to remember, there was a dragonbane weapon on open display. Proactive, was going out of his way to confirm that, yes, it's there, and then finding someone with the authority to remove it, and press it into the fight to help turn the tide, by bringing another great weapon to the fight.
Reactive was scooping it from the hands of a dead knight who was taken down, and critting the dragon, as well as dealing the finishing blow with it, after being denied it's use initially by the knights.
Reactive will get you the loot - proactive will make you glorious.
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I'm not the best at articulating complex emotions, no matter how I try, it never really comes out. But it /feels/ like actually earning what should be relatively simple and has very little /actual/ impact in game is nearly impossible without some guideposts.
I know, I'm parroting the same stuff I always say, but I guess I just don't know how o put it. Human beings are goal oriented as a general rule; some of us more than others, and that little dopamine hit that says 'I finally accomplished X Y or Z' even if it has no bearing on the real world is rewarding.
I'm not suggesting everyone needs to be walking around with some intangible title or vaporal sword, but a lot of things that should be literally /the/ low hanging fruit of involvement shouldn't take moving mountains to get to. Retainership, Road/ Captain status, militia private is pretty much the basic in terms of faction stuff, however anything beyond that you start to see a lot of diminishing returns.
We have a PC Lord who couldn't get a simple building/faction HQ, he's expected to be treated like nobility but in the eyes of most adventurers, nobody /particularly/ cares. Yet they'll herald most npc's as though they were the apostles. The onerous is on that PC to make things fun and involving, but they have access to none of the perks a DM does.
My ultimate view of any accomplishments like that is that it's for the player, for the character (to fulfill a dream or a goal) and not for any other reason as trying to actually leverage such things in game is neigh impossible. Someone with a title can command someone to do something but someone with the /influence/ to earn that title can move mountains without /having/ to order anyone around. One is going to see a lot more involvement and pushing than the other, anyway.
In the end any titles or accolades are almost unilaterally for the benefit of the player's own sense of progression and /not/ to change the world in some special way. The vast, vast majority of people who've actually done amazingly cool things and had staying power were forgotten about, because in the end we want to have fun. I /genuinely/ don't see the problem in awarding minor perks like that now and then. Moderation and discipline are the keys, of course, but I know I'm not the only one who's more than a little sick of burning out in pursuit of something they'll never achieve in a character; I don't like looking at the options of 'don't play at all' or 'play a character with no ambitions or goals outside of questing, because you'll never achieve them'.
I love this place and these people, otherwise this wouldn't bother me at all and I'd have moved on long ago.
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Your right there, we have indeed changed the server to make it much easier to gain ranks in factions.
firstly, you can become a deputy without a DM even being involved. The same is true of advisors.
In order to get the next rank up, it doesn't take all that much, as you said.
After that, there's a larger expectation, because there is a line where things have to be slightly more "special" otherwise you don't get that dopamine hit you were on about when you get it, which is why your probably not getting it for those lower ranks we made it easier to get because people said it was too hard to get any level of faction status.
But here is where your a little off track–
Gaining Knight rank, or noble status (And there are varying levels of nobles in Cormyr, from landed nobles with hereditary titles, to nobility who have no hereditary titles, and no lands,) even the lowest nobles gain a substantial boost to their NPC respect level, and also gain a level of immunity to the law below capital crimes.
It's a BIG perk, and yes, it DOES significantly change things. It's not just for you personally, it affects the server (or at least, it certainly CAN, when those privileges are used effectively)
Also, there is no "simple building/faction HQ"
The reason for that is partially IC, but also has an OOC consideration.
If buildings were "simple" and HQs "simple", then the DM's would be creating HQ's for various player factions, maintaining them, fixing bugs with them, removing them, replacing them, changing the carpet, adding a sender, a bell, an NPC butler, etc, all the time. (by the way, we experimented with this back in mid V4, and it didn't really work out very well, we discovered there was just so much work that needed doing to keep it going, we essentially needed one DMs entire building time (And some in game time often) to keep up with it.)
It takes some real effort to gain perks like an actual building, because it's a lot of effort from the DM side to keep those things up to date, so we only tend to hand them out to established characters and groups, which are doing cool stuff, so that it's A) a major dopamine achievement level thing, and B) we don't have to keep up with loads of faction bases and the associated module/building work.
We DID add in a few claimable bases, which you can get and utilise for such things though, this was an attempt at a compromise between having DMs constantly making bases for people, and players not having enough chance to gain a base.
I think the issue is that there is a disparity between what you are thinking of as "minor" here, compared to what actually IS minor for the server/setting.
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Everything I have EiG I have done without really knowing that is what I was wanting. one thing that helps with EiG is -other- players naming names in their own plots. Even in just casual dialogue, I try to give the names of the people most closely working with or against me. If all I talk about is me, the DMs have no idea who else is interacting with you in a meaningful way on the server.
Some of your EiG, and I think a healthy portion of it, stems from fun -you- create for other people. All this talk about HArd Work and Timing and Apps and that -I- can do for myself to get EiG stuff is a little off-putting. we are here to have fun and create fun. Creating fun get's you things you want and it also gets other people rewards. When I drop my captain and house steward name as contacts for specific things, I send them a chance to EiG. If they get a reward, they would mention my name as making it possible. So I send them more stuff to get them more fun, which trickles down and down and down. It is the only model of trickle down economics I have seen work. You send your fun down the chain to other people, they know you were the fun doing it, and everyone gets rewarded one way or the other. And Plot Tickets. those are helpful. Other people's chatter is the most helpful I think.
This is a group effort, not a DM issue entirely, or even mostly. Players are responsible for eachother, not just themselves, to see those goals and rewards achieved for all parties.
Maybe I am wrong. I have been wrong often.
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Your not wrong, your dead on.
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Maybe so, then, but the disparity isn't mine alone.
I know this is going to sound like whining (and maybe it is), but from what I'm seeing here it's not even worth trying to aim for anything. I just don't get it, and I'm sick of being burned out. . . This kind of stuff is just frustrating as all hell.
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I have never had much fun earning things IG intentionally. When I WANT it, it never happens.
My EiG perks have always happened by accident (promotions, warlock powers, loot etc)
When I am invested in the character and have friends and plots, I get motivated to do things and the perks roll in.
When I don't feel the character, and lack motivation, or get ignored, I never want to do things and get jealous of those who do.
I've learned its all up to you. If one character works, another one won't.
Thanks for taking the time to have a discussion on this Zool and Lizzie. Your tips are very helpful even to us veterans like me :^)
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No problem. Essentially we are just re iterating the posts in the player resources forum all about how to get things done, what dms want and all the other great posts over there
They are worth a read every so often, some have examples and possibly some inspirations.
Your right there though Khamal, I often found the same, just play and have fun, and stuff tends to happen, if you are so totally focused on a nick nack or specific promotion you'll probly end up burning yourself out, or wandering around alone a lot.
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I don't have a specific EIG, but I try to pursue an EIG in the background. To me, player interactions come first, and you don't EIG by interacting with just NPCs or just PCs.
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I don't think you are a whiner, slushie. I think you want certain things and are just having some difficulty articulating it. You are one of the players that showed me it's not all about me here. I think you'll work your way through this slump and good will happen.
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I have had 2 EIG perks…
Cormac MacNulty got official clergy status ( and I believe he got that because he was being pushed to succeed by freinds and because he openly involved every one he could on the Project. )And Wills sword.
Mac was.... looking back I'm not sure exactly what happened. Just heard that someone was messing with the pool of eldath, and that did not sit right with Him...
Will.. had the sword hook dropped on him while making googly eyes at a certain mousey ranger in the fine hells ;-)
But, both required involving others to get materials for me, whether I was with them or not...
So I can see where getting others involved and doing stuff for you and with you can get you the perks, weather you want them or not.
Thanks for this thread, helpful to see things like this to remind me what to do, weather I want to do them with a particular character or not.
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Going to move it to general discussion however as its not really a suggestion.